[Banter]

lol

[Byrthnoth]

Shamaya, on 26 August 2010 - 08:35 PM, said:

This is pretty ridiculous honestly. If they give thief the same DW level they gave Dnc, I can't see how Thf/War won't be a contender for best DD class in any situations they can SA/TA and are allowed to be without shadows. Same thing with Mandau as compared to other relics. Just a quick rough estimate puts DWIV Thf/War at roughly 33% stronger melee DPS and WS rate. And that's without factoring in berserk, passive attack bonus, or aggressor to be added later.

Well, DW IV would dramatically increase THF's DPS (.8/.6, i c wut u did thar I think, but Auric won't be applicable at 85 probably and if you're using it in the denominator you should use it in the numerator), and the WS rate actually increases significantly more than that. However, unstacked dagger WSs are not the best and you guys are at risk of out-TPing your JAs even in a cooperative party.

Compare it to a DDing DNC/WAR.

* THF has 4 more Dex, they have the same STR.
* THF has 294 dagger skill compared to DNC's 281.
* DNC has +22 Accuracy from traits, meaning they have more Acc and less Attack (-13) than Thief.
* THF has 10% Triple Attack from Trait + Merits.
* DNC has probably a ~10% DA base bonus from Saber Dance. (I still haven't figured out how this works, but I suspect it starts at a high % and decays rapidly on a per-hit base to a static low boost.)
* DNC AF3 neck is 5% Dual Wield (.65/.6 boost) = ~8% DPS boost, more than that for TP gain
* Thief has Trick Attack (60 sec) and Sneak Attack (50 sec), which lets them WS really a lot harder. D150 vs. D50 weapon is pretty impressive. Timers and the monsters not turning/people being retards make these JAs less useful than they could be.

I don't know, if I take a rough sum of the above list I see DWIV as about what Thief needs to reclaim its spot as the best Dagger-based DD.

[Gredival]

Shamaya, on 26 August 2010 - 08:35 PM, said:

This is pretty ridiculous honestly. If they give thief the same DW level they gave Dnc, I can't see how Thf/War won't be a contender for best DD class in any situations they can SA/TA and are allowed to be without shadows. Same thing with Mandau as compared to other relics. Just a quick rough estimate puts DWIV Thf/War at roughly 33% stronger melee DPS and WS rate. And that's without factoring in berserk, passive attack bonus, or aggressor to be added later.

Even as one of the most obstinate "Thief is a pure DD" proponents, I have to say playing around with my new War has made realize just how badly the game has been stacked against us since the two handed patch. Especially more so with some of these ridiculous Level 80 2H weapons -- my WAR is unmerited but very well geared, and I can absolutely destroy shit all while giving far far less effort compared to my Thief. Being able to just sit there and only have to hit my WS macro is pretty addicting. And this is all without even touching Hasso so far.

I don't think this will be unbalanced at all really. And SE said they recognize that a lack of DD oriented updates has meant Thief is overdue for one, so this is probably it.



On a side note, how do we know DNC AF3 is a dual wield? What's our AF3? I don't keep up to date with this shit.

This post has been edited by Gredival: 26 August 2010 - 11:56 PM

[Kaparu]

Shamaya, on 26 August 2010 - 08:35 PM, said:

This is pretty ridiculous honestly. If they give thief the same DW level they gave Dnc, I can't see how Thf/War won't be a contender for best DD class in any situations they can SA/TA and are allowed to be without shadows. Same thing with Mandau as compared to other relics. Just a quick rough estimate puts DWIV Thf/War at roughly 33% stronger melee DPS and WS rate. And that's without factoring in berserk, passive attack bonus, or aggressor to be added later.

Dancer had the ability to theoretically keep up with(or fall only slightly behind) the best damage class in the game when Saber Dance was taken as Wiki described it. Even if you do get DW4(which I doubt), you'll never keep up with monk.

[Gredival]

They failed to live up to it because of one important fact no one but you recognizes.

Dancer is a healing class and a healer class only.

[Shamaya]

Dnc has nothin to do with any of this Byrth. The only thing I care to refer to Dnc for in any discussion right now about Thf DPS'ing, is that I use Dnc as an example to hopefully induce that Thf will get the same update soon. I don't need to know Dnc details at any significant length, much as I don't need to know more than general familiarity with jobs like Sam or Brd to do well when using my Thf. There's no question Thief will "retake the position of the best dagger DD." It was never replaced; I'll agree to disagree with those who attest the contrary. But at least it's more clearly a non-issue of discussion now with the new update.

I was thinking in terms of Auric though. so .72/.57 to be exact. Well, I was just continuing thoughts from another thread,
If they give us DW IV, 28->43% DW is an approximate 26% DPS increase. /war D.A. added, factoring in T.A., is a 6.5% increase. Compound that together for a 34% increase in DMG. And we haven't even factored in Berserk, native attack bonus, and eventually aggressor. Whatever the settings, I sure as hell have never been 34% behind in damage when competing with neither the best Apoc on my server, nor the best Mnk, nor the best War. If SE does things right, thief with or without mandau will be something to fear. As it should be.
And I'm not worried about TP'ing too fast. We already out TP our SA/TA timers and are used to unstacking, so that won't change any.

That is a huge increase. I know how I parsed compared to other DD's pre and post mandau; I used to essentially never turn off my parser. I never felt a math writeup was necessary to get a general idea of the strengths of various jobs. And just thinking about how thief parses, adding 33% to that is, in my opinion, kind of ridiculous, lol. That is a /ridiculous/ buff. 33% improved DPS? If that's how it turns out to be when you factor in berserk etc, and factor in that SA/TA rate aren't getting boosted. If people don't realize it now, they will, if Thf really does get DW4.



I mean it just give me a mental erection. Seriously, do I even need to fap it once in the next few weeks? Probably not.

I wouldn't get my hopes high as far as devs havin the attention to ensure game balance goes through. FF14, nuff said. But so far they have done a pretty good job of balancing jobs as these levels rise. Maybe it's just luck. Why couldn't they have done it correctly before? Christ.

And by balance I don't mean just job balance. I also means weapons and equip. Magians vs etc. Abyssea vs salvage etc. They made Auric a little too strong compared to other options, given how easy it is to get. I'm not at the moment fully confident that they'll have it replaced this next update. W/ 15% more DW, reaching a whopping 43%, that 5% DW is certainly more meaningful. I certainly imagine the obvious contenders will be the magian weapons. Namely OAT and Twashtar (as if) is what I'm keeping my eyes on. But even OAT is super hard to get.

I think they've also buffed evade tanking more than they realize. Unless they really do want us to hit the evade cap on IT+ mobs. If that's what they really do want then hey I don't have a problem with that.
Not only did they buff thief as a manasink DD, but that is a fairly decent boost to our DPS /nin. Thief was already increasing in popularity as a tank and that will just continue now.

Gred our AF3 is useless. Can't remember exactly. Something like 1 triple attack and a couple dex.

Man I'm just so pumped. Super saiyan thief. Fuck yeah.

This post has been edited by Shamaya: 27 August 2010 - 03:13 AM

[Kaparu]

Not to be a Negative Nancy, but in addition to the fact that I don't believe Square is going to hand you DW4, lets try to keep in mind the length of time generally required for a paradigm shift of this scale. Sure, best case scenario, thief will be able to more adequately keep up with most first-string damage dealers(warrior and samurai- as I said before, you'll never touch monk), and even surpass some of the lesser ones(dark knight, dragoon), but by the time the playerbase has accepted this, the game will likely be on its way out the door.

[pathwriter]

Enjoy your Dual Wield 1, suckers.

[ironwall]

Aha, knew retiring THF wasn't a mistake. DW @83. Hi2U DW 1

[Kaparu]

Called it(an hour ago)

[Shamaya]

I just got my hopes up and my fingers crossed. They can fuck us in the ass though. I've been right before (AV) but wrong as well (evolith), my guess is as good as yours.

Edit: Like this, http://www.playonlin...767/detail.html

This post has been edited by Shamaya: 27 August 2010 - 04:40 AM

[Byrthnoth]

Well then... I hope it's DW3 at least somehow. Otherwise you guys will be right back to subbing NIN everywhere at 90.

[Gredival]

Well that's what I get for expecting something good from Square past August 2007.

[Kenja]

I'd like to believe that SE just left Thieves hanging after the last Dancer update just because they're sadistic little bastards. Giving a relatively new job class dual wield before an original job class seemed kind of irrational considering for most intents and purposes, our default sub job has always been /Nin. However, I'm also hoping that considering the favoritism Dancer has seen of late, SE has decided to play catch up with Thief. Considering Thief should have already been updated awhile ago, I somehow doubt this update is going to play as favorably as we'd like to believe.

[fyreus]

It's possible that they'll add DW2 later on and give some enhancements on the magian armor for all we know. Just be glad you're not a Ninja in this. I was hoping my Blu would walk away with something nice ... DW@83... wow...