[Aleera]

Wildstriker, on 21 September 2010 - 06:23 PM, said:

If you're going to argue this, you need to suggest how KI is to lure in XI players when BG has a monopoly over new information, FFXIAH has a monopoly over server forums and server disputes, and wiki's vast amounts of data trump anything KI can output without some major overhaul. Keep in mind, most XI players aren't going to be new either or are going to be preoccupied with XIV for a few months, if not years.

We do like what Mac and Dennis did to Frank's tequila shotgun and "tweek" their ideas. We create a new, better source for new information, we create an even bigger monopoly over server forums and server disputes, and while wiki is pretty dominant in the quest/mission area, we take Dyire's ideas for the item/ability database and breathe life into it. We'll one up all these sites in their field and have our community saying, "I'M WASTED!" (in the sense that our info will be like alcohol to them).

This post has been edited by Aleera: 21 September 2010 - 06:34 PM

[Xani]

Aleera, on 21 September 2010 - 06:30 PM, said:

We do like what Mac and Dennis did to Frank's tequila shotgun and "tweek" their ideas. We create a new, better source for new information, we create an even bigger monopoly over server forums and server disputes, and while wiki is pretty dominant in the quest/mission area, we take Dyire's ideas and breathe life into them. We'll one up all these sites in their field and have our community saying, "I'M WASTED!" (in the sense that our info will be like alcohol to them).

Tad ambitious, but I see your point.

[Corrderio]

Dyire, on 21 September 2010 - 06:29 PM, said:

I share the same sentiments, but such drastic changes are a little beyond my own decision. I'm hoping this topic will help kick start the discussions (in general)

And while we're at it, we should clean up all the forums and get rid of whatever out of date stickies we got.

[firefeng]

Aleera, on 21 September 2010 - 06:23 PM, said:

He does, occasionally, but in between the few useful posts he makes is nothing but useless, unnecessary crap. It's irritating to wade through 5+ posts cause he likes to spread his typing out and he's not even contributing.

Define "useful". I haven't made a "useful" post in the DRK forum in years. My activity in the Leviathan server forums is comprised of 90% schmoozing with the regulars, and 10% acerbic remarks to resident idiots. While I'd argue that most of my posts are "relevant" in spite of my complete inability to convey subtlety properly, ask any other regular and I'd most likely be lumped in with the trolls (Ono, in particular, is fond of classifying me this way). You're trying to quantify Derock's usefulness to a market of ideas when there are no criteria with which to make such a judgment. You are attempting to use your gut instinct to make a logical argument, and it doesn't work that way. There are many posts by "trolls" that fall in line with expectations; we tend to glaze over the "useful" posts because they don't incite the same reaction within us as the negative ones.

Quote

I know we can't moderate attitudes, per se, but enforcing a set of rules to keep rude behaviour away from people posting for help would be nice.

You cannot create a utilitarian atmosphere of forced charity without alienating the large majority of regular posters who have remained on KI in spite of its (arguable) failings. KI mods already moderate vitriol-infused spuriousness, what they don't do is (overly) moderate vitriol-infused relevant posts. You want KI to be a happy place of rainbows, gumdrops, and fluffy bunnies, but that is not and never has been KI. I understand the need for evolution to prevent stagnation, but to do so at the cost of what has kept KI alive all this time will instead spell its premature doom.

[Wildstriker]

firefeng, on 21 September 2010 - 06:40 PM, said:

You cannot create a utilitarian atmosphere of forced charity without alienating the large majority of regular posters who have remained on KI in spite of its (arguable) failings. KI mods already moderate vitriol-infused spuriousness, what they don't do is (overly) moderate vitriol-infused relevant posts. You want KI to be a happy place of rainbows, gumdrops, and fluffy bunnies, but that is not and never has been KI. I understand the need for evolution to prevent stagnation, but to do so at the cost of what has kept KI alive all this time will instead spell its premature doom.

This. QFT, etc.

[-Kaine-]

Corrderio, on 21 September 2010 - 06:37 PM, said:

And while we're at it, we should clean up all the forums and get rid of whatever out of date stickies we got.

I know I'm rather new to KI.. and I haven't made a single post about FFXI.. but that's because I've quit since long... however I agree..

[Aleera]

firefeng, on 21 September 2010 - 06:40 PM, said:

Define "useful". I haven't made a "useful" post in the DRK forum in years. My activity in the Leviathan server forums is comprised of 90% schmoozing with the regulars, and 10% acerbic remarks to resident idiots. While I'd argue that most of my posts are "relevant" in spite of my complete inability to convey subtlety properly, ask any other regular and I'd most likely be lumped in with the trolls (Ono, in particular, is fond of classifying me this way). You're trying to quantify Derock's usefulness to a market of ideas when there are no criteria with which to make such a judgment. You are attempting to use your gut instinct to make a logical argument, and it doesn't work that way. There are many posts by "trolls" that fall in line with expectations; we tend to glaze over the "useful" posts because they don't incite the same reaction within us as the negative ones.

I agree, there's really no such thing as a "useful" post by anyone here, and sure what you do would be considered trolling, too, but at least you're funny and witty, meanwhile his posts are demeaning and senseless. Posting 3 word responses to his own posts over and over again is not useful at all, and personally a waste of peoples time and bandwidth.

firefeng, on 21 September 2010 - 06:40 PM, said:

You cannot create a utilitarian atmosphere of forced charity without alienating the large majority of regular posters who have remained on KI in spite of its (arguable) failings. KI mods already moderate vitriol-infused spuriousness, what they don't do is (overly) moderate vitriol-infused relevant posts. You want KI to be a happy place of rainbows, gumdrops, and fluffy bunnies, but that is not and never has been KI. I understand the need for evolution to prevent stagnation, but to do so at the cost of what has kept KI alive all this time will instead spell its premature doom.

Well, yeah, like I said before, I'm not expecting people to be holding hands and shitting rainbows when they post, but if someone posts looking for info or help with something and they get "Gtfo gimp/noob/etc" instead, there needs to be some sort of order going on. It's incredibly discouraging and probably a reason for our lack of numbers here. The atmosphere here can be incredibly hostile, which is probably the reason for the site not being as useful as it was, since everyone acts like grumpy old war vets cocking their guns when someone walks up to their porch step.

[Wildstriker]

Aleera, on 21 September 2010 - 06:53 PM, said:

Well, yeah, like I said before, I'm not expecting people to be holding hands and shitting rainbows when they post, but if someone posts looking for info or help with something and they get "Gtfo gimp/noob/etc" instead, there needs to be some sort of order going on. It's incredibly discouraging and probably a reason for our lack of numbers here. The atmosphere here can be incredibly hostile, which is probably the reason for the site not being as useful as it was, since everyone acts like grumpy old war vets cocking their guns when someone walks up to their porch step.

This is the furthest thing from the truth. If you've ever read BG or any of the more successful forums then you'd see why this is the case. The fact is this: people love conflict. That's why people watch those retarded reality t.v. shows. KI was nice in the day with its stickies and such, but the reason those were ever updated is because people needed something to do while they wait for the next conflict or flame war to happen. Any claim to the contrary is pure denial.

[Xani]

Wildstriker, on 21 September 2010 - 06:59 PM, said:

This is the furthest thing from the truth. If you've ever read BG or any of the more successful forums then you'd see why this is the case. The fact is this: people love conflict. That's why people watch those retarded reality t.v. shows. KI was nice in the day with its stickies and such, but the reason those were ever updated is because people needed something to do while they wait for the next conflict or flame war to happen. Any claim to the contrary is pure denial.

Wrong. I never used to post in the forums, hence why my account has only been active since Feb '09. I used to spend all of my time searching for information that was in abundance here. Now, however, the only good thing about KI is FW, simply because it's the only place in the whole of KI that is alive. And by alive I mean slowly choking on it's own coma-induced vomit.

This post has been edited by Xani: 21 September 2010 - 07:05 PM

[Aleera]

Wildstriker, on 21 September 2010 - 06:59 PM, said:

This is the furthest thing from the truth. If you've ever read BG or any of the more successful forums then you'd see why this is the case. The fact is this: people love conflict. That's why people watch those retarded reality t.v. shows. KI was nice in the day with its stickies and such, but the reason those were ever updated is because people needed something to do while they wait for the next conflict or flame war to happen. Any claim to the contrary is pure denial.

I love conflict as much as the next person, but that's what Flame Wars is for, not when I'm seeking out info.

[Wildstriker]

Xani, on 21 September 2010 - 07:05 PM, said:

Wrong. I never used to post in the forums, hence why my account has only been active since Feb '09. I used to spend all of my time searching for information that was in abundance here. Now, however, the only good thing about KI is FW, simply because it's the only place in the whole of KI that is alive. And by alive I mean slowly choking on it's own coma-induced vomit.

You can't just claim I am wrong while verifying the exact point of my post; that the only place alive on this forum is inherently conflictual. That's not how logic works, you don't disprove argument A by pointing out that A holds and then denying it.

[Xani]

Fact is, people are assholes here because they get away with it. Nothing is done to keep FW in FW except occasionally locking a thread every now and then. My point is, that KI needs a makeover. That, or cut it off entirely and be done with the damned place.

[Wildstriker]

Aleera, on 21 September 2010 - 07:07 PM, said:

I love conflict as much as the next person, but that's what Flame Wars is for, not when I'm seeking out info.

Aside from stickies, what info does a person need to seek? A good question is hard to flame anyway so I don't see how what I am saying is going to undermine the goal of spreading valuable information. To be honest, you're conflating what I am saying with trolling, thus creating a red herring. Look at the good threads of the past. Asura forums are full of entertaining threads. The Monk forums were hilarious to read when people would argue ad nauseum that Dune Boots were better than Fumas only to be disproven.

All I've seen was how you intuitively feel about flames. I understand you choose to be an adult, but if your goal is to get more posters, you need to acknowledge not everyone holds your pristine view.

[Aleera]

Wildstriker, on 21 September 2010 - 07:13 PM, said:

Aside from stickies, what info does a person need to seek? A good question is hard to flame anyway so I don't see how what I am saying is going to undermine the goal of spreading valuable information. To be honest, you're conflating what I am saying with trolling, thus creating a red herring. Look at the good threads of the past. Asura forums are full of entertaining threads. The Monk forums were hilarious to read when people would argue ad nauseum that Dune Boots were better than Fumas only to be disproven.

All I've seen was how you intuitively feel about flames. I understand you choose to be an adult, but if your goal is to get more posters, you need to acknowledge not everyone holds your pristine view.

Have you been to a lot of the job forums lately? I go into the DNC forums and a lot of the threads and questions go unanswered or a few posts in people are starting arguments which get derailed and go way, way off topic. There's new JA's and info coming out all the time and not a single post has been made about any of them. I've seen a few posts about the new empyrean gear (but only in select job forums) and that's about it. Nobody posts testing new spells, JA, gear, etc. anymore and stickies haven't been updated in most job forums since 2007. And I don't like BG much, their forum layouts are complete shit. I go there when they have a bustling new .dat digging post after an update that goes on for about 26 pages, and that's about it. Otherwise BG's forums make me want to blow my brains out. And don't even get me started on FFXIAH.com's forums...

[Dyire]

Everyone is putting forth valid points, all which I've internally debated for years now while lurking. (I'm a dork)

One thing that I'm sure of, at any rate, is that with good and helpful information that is consistently helping others, the community will grow. Much of our current "pains" are results of an older game and its matured community.

[firefeng]

Xani, on 21 September 2010 - 07:05 PM, said:

Wrong. I never used to post in the forums, hence why my account has only been active since Feb '09. I used to spend all of my time searching for information that was in abundance here. Now, however, the only good thing about KI is FW, simply because it's the only place in the whole of KI that is alive. And by alive I mean slowly choking on it's own coma-induced vomit.

If you feel negativity is to be the death knell of KI...then why are you so Goddamn negative?

Your post is a matter of opinion. Flame Wars has been dead for quite some time.

[Wildstriker]

Aleera, on 21 September 2010 - 07:19 PM, said:

Have you been to a lot of the job forums lately? I go into the DNC forums and a lot of the threads and questions go unanswered or a few posts in people are starting arguments which get derailed and go way, way off topic. There's new JA's and info coming out all the time and not a single post has been made about any of them. I've seen a few posts about the new empyrean gear (but only in select job forums) and that's about it. Nobody posts testing new spells, JA, gear, etc. anymore and stickies haven't been updated in most job forums since 2007. And I don't like BG much, their forum layouts are complete shit. I go there when they have a bustling new .dat digging post after an update that goes on for about 26 pages, and that's about it. Otherwise BG's forums make me want to blow my brains out. And don't even get me started on FFXIAH.com's forums...

That's because the game has become pretty cut and dry. Once the basic damage formulas were established, enmity decay (CE/VE) was discovered, and haste was solidified as the top priority of any and all damage dealers, anything new that comes out is purely content reliant; that is it's basically "How do I get this item?". There is no need to debate which set is the best because the criteria for judgment has become simple now that we understand this game a lot better. Any new spells that need to be tested follow an established template and here's another conundrum; do people with new information go to BG because it is a haven of new information or does new information appear on BG predominantly because of those posters?

What else is left for one to do, when people can get their kicks flaming or even discussing server issues on FFXIAH and post new info on BG and compile that info on wiki? You have KI where people talk more about random things than the game itself. You keep thinking about what you want, but you need to think critically and evaluate the situation even if it means compromising your own views. Otherwise you're just coming off, to put it politely, as highly opinionated.

This post has been edited by Wildstriker: 21 September 2010 - 07:29 PM

[Aleera]

Wildstriker, on 21 September 2010 - 07:27 PM, said:

That's because the game has become pretty cut and dry. Once the basic damage formulas were established, enmity decay (CE/VE) was discovered, and haste was solidified as the top priority of any and all damage dealers, anything new that comes out is purely content reliant; that is it's basically "How do I get this item?". There is no need to debate which set is the best because the criteria for judgment has become simple now that we understand this game a lot better. Any new spells that need to be tested follow an established template and here's another conundrum; do people with new information go to BG because it is a haven of new information or does new information appear on BG predominantly because of those posters?

What else is left for one to do, when people can get their kicks flaming or even discussing server issues on FFXIAH and post new info on BG and compile that info on wiki? You have KI where people talk more about random things than the game itself. You keep thinking about what you want, but you need to think critically and evaluate the situation even if it means compromising your own views. Otherwise you're just coming off, to put it politely, as highly opinionated.

And this is exactly the problem Xani is posting about.. We need to step it up and be an alternative to BG, not just the dirt under it's shoe. Before BG got super popular, KI and Allah were those places for info. All I'm saying is if we can get people to be as active and lively as BG when it comes to new info and everything, then the site will improve overall. A matter of how is the real question. I know there's always gonna be flaming and disputing in threads, and I'm not saying to get rid of it entirely, but we just need at least a few people to step up and be productive and get the answers out there, too. We let ourselves succumb to everything that's let the site slide down the proverbial totem pole of knowledge, and we as a community need to pick up the slack and move back up.

[Dyire]

Internet forums are serious business

[treelo]

So long as you completely ignore the THF forums (or better yet, just change the name to treelo's den) I really couldn't care less what you do. I think the same applies to most the people who come here and aren't actively taking part in the forums. Like it or not, KI has acquired it's reputation and you'll find it hard to shake that. Granted, my initial visits here were for information, but it soon became apparent that this was drama central. Very few people I've spoken to over the years come here for information, they come here to read people screaming at one another for any number of reasons. They came for the server forums primarily, to read about the latest happenings in pointless HNM drama. As the key players across every server eventually tired of the game and left, the key selling point died with them. So naturally the chaos spread to other sections, reducing the job specific forums to a stomping ground for trolls and a handful of newbs genuinely seeking help. When they got tired of being laughed at, they stopped coming. Now you find activity limited to a small section of the forums, which people still come to read.

To be quite honest, if you're thinking of updating the FFXI sections, you're barking up the wrong tree. BG and the like have built their reputation on being primary sources of the latest information as far as theorycrafting goes, and attempting to compete with FFXIclopedia in terms of information is no small undertaking. That's not to say they're necessarily bad ideas, but you'd be much better off spending the time and effort on the FFXIV sections. If you really want to introduce new blood, you'll find it much easier to make a positive impression on people with no preconceptions of what KI is all about. You've already noticed a resurgence of old faces returning to co-ordinate their efforts on FFXIV, they're not here for FFXI stuff. I've only skimmed the thread, but nobody else seems to have mentioned any of this yet.

As far as moderation and the like, you're incredibly lax about it. It pains me to say it, because hey, I'd probably have been banned a long time ago if you weren't. The same names pop up in discussion frequently when it comes to this subject, yet nothing is done about it. There is the "trolling" most of us partake in, and then there is just plain trolling; I get the feeling the mods (when they're actually online) have lost sight of this boundary and are far too scared of stepping on toes to do anything about it. Get rid of them.

Oh, and if anyone makes Corrderio a mod, I will hunt you down and feed you your own spleen laced with arsenic. Then I'll feed you to your kids, or pets, or neighbours, depending on availability.