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#1
User is offline   Metticus 

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http://news.yahoo.co..._sci_new_earths

Quote

So much for the Goldilocks planet.

Astronomers and ordinary people alike were cheered at the discovery in April of a new planet only five times the mass of the Earth circling a dim star in Libra. The planet, known as Gliese 581c, orbits at a distance of about seven million miles, within the star’s so-called habitable zone where it is neither too hot nor too cold for water to exist on its surface, making it the most promising spot for life yet found outside the solar system.

“On the treasure map of the universe, one would be tempted to mark this planet with an X,” said one member of the discovery team, Xavier Delfosse of Grenoble University in France.

“Everybody got excited,” said Manfred Cuntz, an astronomer at the University of Texas at Arlington.

Now, however, it seems that Gliese 581c is no paradise. A new analysis by German and Texas astronomers assuming Earthlike characteristics for its geology and atmosphere has concluded that the planet is probably a stifling greenhouse unsuitable for Life As We Know It.

“It’s just too hot,” said Dr. Cuntz, who was part of a team of theorists led by Werner von Bloh of the Potsdam Institute for Climate Impact Research, in Germany. He added, “I would not recommend mankind to move to that planet right now.”

In a strange twist, however, the astronomers said that another planet in the system, heavier at eight times the mass of Earth and farther from its star, had emerged from the calculations as possibly a pleasant abode, the new Goldilocks perhaps. The planet, known as Gliese 581d, orbits at a distance of 23 million miles, which would normally make it too cold for liquid water, but the same greenhouse effect that would torch the smaller closer planet would warm the larger outer one and make it livable.

“We cannot cool down an atmosphere of a planet,” Dr. Cuntz explained, “but we can heat it up.” In a paper that has been submitted to the journal Astronomy and Astrophysics, he and his colleagues went so far as to write about the outer planet, Gliese 581d, “Despite the adverse conditions of this planet, at least some primitive forms of life may be able to exist on its surface.”

But other astronomers, while agreeing that there was an emerging consensus that 581c was too hot for life, described the new paper as speculative, resting on assumptions about how closely the Gliese planets resembled the Earth.

The main lesson, said Sara Seager, a planetary theorist at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, is that the idea of habitability is much more complicated than just the locations of planetary orbits. “The properties of the planet come into play,” Dr. Seager said.

“Astronomers are going to realize just how complicated the idea of habitability is,” she said. “The whole of astronomy is built on not knowing anything.”

The Goldilocks planet was discovered by a group led by Stephane Udry, of the Geneva Observatory, who said their initial estimates of its temperature and habitability had been based on its having only a thin atmosphere. He agreed that a thicker atmosphere would heat it up.

Dimitar D. Sasselov, of the Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics, who has also been studying the Gliese system, agreed that it was reasonable to expect that the greenhouse effect would warm the outer planet to comfortable temperatures. “I would trust that result because I am getting the same numbers,” he said in an e-mail message from Greece.

But, as Dr. Seager emphasized, it remains to be seen which models of earthly geology and climate can be safely and appropriately extrapolated to the much more massive Gliese planets. All astronomers really know now about these planets are their masses and orbits. Another complication is that the planets are so close to their star that they are almost certainly tidally locked, with the same side always facing the star, leading to constant heating on one side and cooling on the other. The resulting extreme weather, Dr. Cuntz said, made it likely that only simple forms of life could exist on Gliese 581d, the outer planet.

Astronomers are not likely to know more about these planets until space missions like NASA’s Terrestrial Planet Finders and the European Space Agency’s Darwin, designed to study terrestrial planets in the realms beyond our solar system, are in operation.

Dr. Cuntz said, “We really have to do more work.” The Gliese planets, he said, are still the closest analogues to the Earth that have been found. “This is really to the credit of the Swiss group,” he said. “These two planets are really the best two cases we have.”

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#2
User is offline   Kenshiro 

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Cuntz
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#3
User is offline   Corrderio 

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Planet Bob
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#4
User is offline   rambus 

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you guys are jerks, thats really cool, wtf is a plant bob? gtfo
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#5
User is offline   Aleera 

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Quote

“It’s just too hot,” said Dr. Cuntz


I stopped reading after this part cause it started to sound like dialogue from a porn.
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#6
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I wonder if the guys on that planet are looking at us and saying "Not enough greenhouse gases, that planet is just too cold for life as we know it."
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#7
User is offline   rambus 

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View PostZombuh, on 30 September 2010 - 01:20 PM, said:

I wonder if the guys on that planet are looking at us and saying "Not enough greenhouse gases, that planet is just too cold for life as we know it."

na they are saying "It’s just too hot"

if they saw our mars they could be like, it could be perfect if it had a thinker atmosphere since there is water evidence.

View PostAleera, on 30 September 2010 - 01:08 PM, said:


Quote

“It’s just too hot,” said Dr. Cuntz

I stopped reading after this part cause it started to sound like dialogue from a porn.



Just remember ,some like it hot.

This post has been edited by rambus: 30 September 2010 - 01:28 PM

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#8
User is offline   Metticus 

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Some say that their planet is colder than ours since it is further away to it's sun than us. Others are saying that because it has a bad green house and it evens out. I think the latter is true. Just like Titan.

5 times the mass of earth though. Can you imagine weighting almost 500 to over 1000 lbs?
"Congratulations, you've given birth to a 45 lb. baby boy"

This post has been edited by Metticus: 30 September 2010 - 01:34 PM

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#9
User is offline   rambus 

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View PostMetticus, on 30 September 2010 - 01:28 PM, said:

Some say that their planet is colder than ours since it is further away to it's sun than us. Others are saying that because it has a bad green house and it evens out. I think the latter is true. Just like Titan.

5 times the mass of earth though. Can you imagine weighting almost 500 to over 1000 lbs?
"Congratulations, you've given birth to a 45 lb. baby boy"


thats not what that means.

what you said is partly true, you don't know the acceleration due to gravity there, part of what defines a wight.

good example is Venus.

Mass 4.868 5 × 1024 kg
0.815 Earths

earth:
Mass 5.9736 × 1024 kg

http://www.nasa.gov/..._worldbook.html

maybe im wrong but i thought i read somewhere that venus had high pressure from the atmosphere of some sort where ti would make you feel you weigh a lot there and be crushed.

This post has been edited by rambus: 30 September 2010 - 02:11 PM

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#10
User is offline   Kenshiro 

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The atmosphere on Venus is made up of mostly carbonioxide which is heavier than air, and the atmosphere is a fuckton thicker than Earth's. You would be crushed under that weight.
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#11
User is offline   Metticus 

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So then how much would you weight in a planet with 5 times the mass then.
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#12
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View PostMetticus, on 30 September 2010 - 04:13 PM, said:

So then how much would you weight in a planet with 5 times the mass then.


Depends on the rotation speed. The planet could be 100x bigger than earth, but if it's not spinning, everyone there can fly.
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#13
User is offline   Metticus 

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View PostLogan Draconia, on 30 September 2010 - 05:10 PM, said:

Depends on the rotation speed. The planet could be 100x bigger than earth, but if it's not spinning, everyone there can fly.

what really? no way. I need someone to verify that
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#14
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View Postrambus, on 30 September 2010 - 01:00 PM, said:

you guys are jerks, thats really cool, wtf is a plant bob? gtfo

Obviously you never seen Titan AE
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#15
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View PostMetticus, on 30 September 2010 - 08:20 PM, said:

what really? no way. I need someone to verify that

I'm pretty sure a planet would disintegrate if it was literally not spinning, but I'm a.) not sure and b.) not sure that could even happen in nature, anyhow. There may be a small friction gradient in nature, but it would take being isolated from literally any gravity source or deliberate outside action to stop a planet spinning. We do know that a slow rotational speed is feasible. The moon is, what, only 1/5 the size of Earth? Possibly smaller, I don't feel like looking, and it only rotates about once per month. You'd think its lighter mass and density would contribute to faster spin, but it didn't turn out that way. And there's still a definite gravity, weak enough for jumping but definitely not unaided human flight.

Either way, rotational speed, density of the planet, proximity to its star... lots of things can affect gravity on a given surface. This isn't helped by the fact that we don't actually know what gravity is and, as such, are pretty much just doing napkin math when it comes to trying to predict this sort of thing. It's pretty good napkin math, mind you.
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#16
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View PostMetticus, on 30 September 2010 - 08:20 PM, said:

what really? no way. I need someone to verify that


Acceleration relative to the rotating Earth

The acceleration measured on the rotating surface of the Earth is not quite the same as the acceleration that is measured for a free-falling body because of the centrifugal force. In other words, the apparent acceleration in the rotating frame of reference is the total gravity vector minus a small vector toward the north-south axis of the Earth, corresponding to staying stationary in that frame of reference.
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#17
User is offline   Kenshiro 

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View PostMetticus, on 30 September 2010 - 08:20 PM, said:

what really? no way. I need someone to verify that


A planet with 100x the mass of earth will always have more surface gravity. Go back to 5th grade.
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#18
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View PostKenshiro, on 30 September 2010 - 08:51 PM, said:

A planet with 100x the mass of earth will always have more surface gravity. Go back to 5th grade.

No man you read it wrong. I was replying to the guy before me who said we would fly off the earth if it stopped spinning. Which is sillyness
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#19
User is offline   firefeng 

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View PostLogan Draconia, on 30 September 2010 - 05:10 PM, said:

Depends on the rotation speed. The planet could be 100x bigger than earth, but if it's not spinning, everyone there can fly.


No. If the planet is 100x bigger than Earth, and does not spin, you will be crushed violently and painfully by the weight of your own skin. Centrepital force, or lack thereof (there is no such thing as centrifugal force), would not affect this at all. Edit: To clarify, centrepital force would not affect your skin crushing you. Assuming a rotational speed that approached the acceleration necessary to remove you from the gravitational pull of the planet without meeting it, you could place a scale under your feet and it might read "zero lbs./kg"; however, the forces acting upon you would actually almost double (acceleration via centrepital force on top of gravitational acceleration), and the force vector for your demise would arise orthagonally to gravitational force instead of parallel to it.

In even more base laymen's terms: Instead of collapsing downward, you'd be fucked sideways.

View Postpathwriter, on 30 September 2010 - 08:45 PM, said:

I'm pretty sure a planet would disintegrate if it was literally not spinning, but I'm a.) not sure and b.) not sure that could even happen in nature, anyhow. There may be a small friction gradient in nature, but it would take being isolated from literally any gravity source or deliberate outside action to stop a planet spinning. We do know that a slow rotational speed is feasible. The moon is, what, only 1/5 the size of Earth? Possibly smaller, I don't feel like looking, and it only rotates about once per month. You'd think its lighter mass and density would contribute to faster spin, but it didn't turn out that way. And there's still a definite gravity, weak enough for jumping but definitely not unaided human flight.

Either way, rotational speed, density of the planet, proximity to its star... lots of things can affect gravity on a given surface. This isn't helped by the fact that we don't actually know what gravity is and, as such, are pretty much just doing napkin math when it comes to trying to predict this sort of thing. It's pretty good napkin math, mind you.


A planet would not disintegrate if it were completely motionless. We also know exactly what gravity is (this is the second time I've seen you say we don't). Every object that has mass warps the space-time continuum. Objects with more mass warp spacetime more than objects with less mass. Put a bowling ball on top of a suspended rubber sheet, and the sheet will warp. Place a marble on the edge of that sheet, and it will fall inward towards the bowling ball. Spin it around the concave created by the bowling ball, and assuming frictionless surfaces, the marble will orbit the bowling ball. Replace "bowling ball" with "object that has mass" and "rubber sheet" with "spacetime".

What we do not know, to the best of my knowledge, is why mass affects spacetime in this way. We just know that it does, and that we call the acceleration created by this warping of spacetime "gravity".

The theory of general relativity has been around for over 90 years. Educate yourselves. Or ask Rambus. I suspect he may know more about the subject, anyway, even with his obvious disability when it comes to conveying ideas.

This post has been edited by firefeng: 01 October 2010 - 06:11 AM

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#20
User is offline   Kenshiro 

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View PostMetticus, on 30 September 2010 - 09:26 PM, said:

No man you read it wrong. I was replying to the guy before me who said we would fly off the earth if it stopped spinning. Which is sillyness

I was replying to him too. He was trying to say if a huge planet wasn't spinning, there would be less gravity that Earth's, even if that planet was 100x as massive.

edit:

We know the effects of gravity on the universe (for the most part); we do not understand the force that causes it/what the force that causes it even is, don't pretend that we do. The only unifying theory of gravity for our model of physics that makes any sense is untestable (for now). You can bet when we do fully understand the mechanics behind it that there will be all kinds of crazy shit going on. Gravity bombs, anti-grav vehicles, etc.

This post has been edited by Kenshiro: 01 October 2010 - 06:30 AM

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