[UNCTGTG]

firefeng, on 13 December 2010 - 10:07 AM, said:

I'd settle for Hasso/Seigan not affecting dark magic casting/recast. That would easily balance DRK for the DD tank side of things.

And yes, the Absorb-TP nerf sucks. This explains why I was getting such low-ball figures on it in WoE when I would try to pop off 4 Guillos per LR with Sekka/Meditate/Abs-TP.

Edit: Called the haste on body, hands, but it's lower than I was hoping. (Not that it matters, AF3 body fixes the Timarli Jawshan conundrum.) Grats to Apoc users, since hopefully wearing the full set of AF3+2 will outweigh their loss of a monopoly on DRKs at capped haste. The only question I have is whether or not it would make sense to just use 15% haste in gear (full AF3+2 and a Blitz ring) so you could equip Aguinus belt or some such, because the only belt with just 2% haste on it isn't really worth equipping just to cap a fraction of haste...

Been playing with numbers' myself Firefang. Right now my mind is set on finishing up my AFv3+1s and getting the 5 kills.

[Banter]

Virginia, on 13 December 2010 - 09:54 AM, said:

Fine, but Drain II and Dread Spikes are on fucking 3 minute timers (base). Cure III's on a 5 second timer. I don't have Cure IV or V, but they're nowhere even close to being the 45 seconds Stun is... plus they heal.

We don't have a reliable natural defensive ability, but we get Tactical Parry for our E Parrying skill. Either SE is looking into adjusting our abilities towards tanking or damage mitigation, or they're laughing at us really damn hard.

Oh yeah, thanks for giving us useless higher level spells, and still no Auto-Refresh; I totally see us using magic more often now >.>

PLD's had Auto-Refresh for a while, but they still get gear/abilities that convert dmg taken into MP, and TP into MP. Does SE really think Aspir II's addition measures up, when it's entirely dependent on what type of mob we're fighting?

Cures should not regularly be used on PLD as a way of healing dmg, but a way of generating more hate. Stun gives you a little breathing room, Dread spikes gives you a very large boost to the damage you can take (and deal), and Drain II lowers the chances of you getting one shotted. The only thing PLD has that is comparable is Reprisal and Sentinel, but Sentinel is generally used as a hate tool and not a damage mitigation tool. However, this whole argument is worthless because PLD is a sub par tank and currently has no place in the game. What we should really be looking at is DRK vs other DD tanks like SAM, MNK and WAR.

[Virginia]

I'm talking about overall survivability, and that's why i keep PLD in play here. Also, despite being "subpar" for exp purposes, they're still very good for going up against higher NMs and HNMs. so far, the people who attack fast and hard enough to get hate from a mid-high NM (sans hate-reset moves) are DDs capable of tanking to a degree anyway. I know I'm not gonna beat either of the pair of Relic monks my LS has, but they're fine on damage AND defense while subbing /NIN.

Even if they did not use that sub, a huge HP pool, the omnipresent Counter ability for dmg nullification + dmg to mob, and Guard definitely help them live long. Chakra, while on a 3 minute timer, can easily cure about 1/4 of their HP, guaranteed, no resists.

Dread Spikes I call shit; the recast timer is 3 minutes, and it's timed at a single minute. While you'd be nullifying around 1000-1200 dmg, that's not going to help much on mid-high NMs with 30-40k HP, that also hit between 200 and 400 dmg per smack. Say I have all enhancements on and an Atma, I'm at about 2000 HP. that means a mob hits 2.3-5x and my spikes are done, then it can pretty much guaranteed kill me in the next 5-10 hits unless I get cure bombed, which will take my hate away. Seigan messes up our casting times, and is on a 1 minute recast, so if we need to cast a Drain I or II, we run the risk of extending our our only healing/dmg spells to 1.5 and 4 minute recasts, while damage negation is up to luck.

Note: Swinging slow isn't good for a DRK/DNC.

Paladins can both get hate AND keep people alive with their Cure spells... you might not want it to have to come to this, but DDs can back off periodically to let a PLD build enmity back up. This can keep people alive, rather than our feeble set of abilities.

[Banter]

Virginia, on 13 December 2010 - 04:10 PM, said:

I'm talking about overall survivability, and that's why i keep PLD in play here. Also, despite being "subpar" for exp purposes, they're still very good for going up against higher NMs and HNMs. so far, the people who attack fast and hard enough to get hate from a mid-high NM (sans hate-reset moves) are DDs capable of tanking to a degree anyway. I know I'm not gonna beat either of the pair of Relic monks my LS has, but they're fine on damage AND defense while subbing /NIN.

Even if they did not use that sub, a huge HP pool, the omnipresent Counter ability for dmg nullification + dmg to mob, and Guard definitely help them live long. Chakra, while on a 3 minute timer, can easily cure about 1/4 of their HP, guaranteed, no resists.

Dread Spikes I call shit; the recast timer is 3 minutes, and it's timed at a single minute. While you'd be nullifying around 1000-1200 dmg, that's not going to help much on mid-high NMs with 30-40k HP, that also hit between 200 and 400 dmg per smack. Say I have all enhancements on and an Atma, I'm at about 2000 HP. that means a mob hits 2.3-5x and my spikes are done, then it can pretty much guaranteed kill me in the next 5-10 hits unless I get cure bombed, which will take my hate away. Seigan messes up our casting times, and is on a 1 minute recast, so if we need to cast a Drain I or II, we run the risk of extending our our only healing/dmg spells to 1.5 and 4 minute recasts, while damage negation is up to luck.

Note: Swinging slow isn't good for a DRK/DNC.

Paladins can both get hate AND keep people alive with their Cure spells... you might not want it to have to come to this, but DDs can back off periodically to let a PLD build enmity back up. This can keep people alive, rather than our feeble set of abilities.

You're really down playing how strong Dread spikes and Drain 2 can be, but I will say that MNK is currently the top DD tank by a decent margin, DRK can still be suitable and do as good/better than most other jobs.

[Virginia]

But not in an NM situation, which is mostly what I was putting forth. In EXP, it almost doesn't matter which DD tanks...DRK just has the ability to do guaranteed damage thanks to spikes, even if it's not a whole lot.

Drain II and Dread Spikes are cool, to be sure, but 3-minute recasts are somewhat harsh, especially when we don't have anything else. Most other jobs have 1-minute/30 second recasts on some nice abilities, or if it's a 5-minute recast, it's active for 3 minutes with 2 minutes cooldown. Why do we not have anything along those lines? We have Souleater, which lasts 1 minute, but is a 6 minute recast (before merits, 5 when fully merited), and Last Resort which is a 5 minute base recast (4:10 fully merited) while only lasting 30 seconds. Last Resort drops our defense horribly for tanking with no Counter or Retaliation-like buffer, and Souleater kills us while we use it.

Assuming each job has a partner who can heal:
Monks drop their defense hard with Counterstance, but the plus side is that they Counter a fuckton, which is both damage nullification AND bonus damage/TP. In case of emergencies, there is Mantra.

Dragoons can use Cure IVs frequently with low MP requirement, and have both an instant dmg/Enmity- & a Third Eye ability.

Samurai of course with Seigan can use Third Eye once every thirty seconds, and have the chance to Evade up to 8 attacks in a row with it. They may not be able to heal, but combine one with a DNC sub, and It'll take a high NM to kill them.

Each of these jobs has something very important that DRK does not have....the ability to instantly remove or add something to play. DRK has slow attack speed and slow recast timers, and that's really only good for backing up one of the other jobs with some extra dmg, and turning if said dmg gets to be too much. We're attached to other DDs like a hyper-strong pet, or to healers as an MP sinkhole.

This post has been edited by Virginia: 14 December 2010 - 12:26 AM

[Banter]

Virginia, on 14 December 2010 - 12:24 AM, said:

But not in an NM situation, which is mostly what I was putting forth. In EXP, it almost doesn't matter which DD tanks...DRK just has the ability to do guaranteed damage thanks to spikes, even if it's not a whole lot.

Drain II and Dread Spikes are cool, to be sure, but 3-minute recasts are somewhat harsh, especially when we don't have anything else. Most other jobs have 1-minute/30 second recasts on some nice abilities, or if it's a 5-minute recast, it's active for 3 minutes with 2 minutes cooldown. Why do we not have anything along those lines? We have Souleater, which lasts 1 minute, but is a 6 minute recast (before merits, 5 when fully merited), and Last Resort which is a 5 minute base recast (4:10 fully merited) while only lasting 30 seconds. Last Resort drops our defense horribly for tanking with no Counter or Retaliation-like buffer, and Souleater kills us while we use it.

Properly buffed, Drain 2 and Spikes are both on 1:30 recasts. That's at least an extra 1k (realistically a lot more in abyssea, but being generous) damage from spikes alone. You have stun, which is generally a free couple seconds off of your utsu timers / helpful for a cotank to get shadows up and Weapon bash that's pretty much always 3-4 seconds of stun and always a free Ichi cast in a pinch. They're also both really good for hate, where most other DDs tanking abilities don't give hate / only give hate (notable exception is counterstance). As far as damage, yes DRK is behind other DDs obviously as I've stated. The thing is, where DRK lacks that, it can also maintain hate when melees are not able to deal damage, putting it in kind of a hybrid tanking tier between straight DD and PLD.

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Assuming each job has a partner who can heal:
Monks drop their defense hard with Counterstance, but the plus side is that they Counter a fuckton, which is both damage nullification AND bonus damage/TP. In case of emergencies, there is Mantra.

You're highly overestimating the effectiveness of defense against anything higher than your level. It does reduce some damage, but it's generally not anything to even be worried about (aside from a few random mobs). And any MNK worth it's salt won't have Mantra, period.

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Dragoons can use Cure IVs frequently with low MP requirement, and have both an instant dmg/Enmity- & a Third Eye ability.

DRG will never be a capable tank, only something to fill in in a pinch. It is, however, the DD the generally requires the lowest amount of support and can deal substantial damage to go with it.

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Samurai of course with Seigan can use Third Eye once every thirty seconds, and have the chance to Evade up to 8 attacks in a row with it. They may not be able to heal, but combine one with a DNC sub, and It'll take a high NM to kill them.

Absorb up to 8 attacks, but anyone can tell you that 2-3 is average, and any more than that is fairly rare. Any thing HNM-like, they'll be SAM/NIN, anything easy, they'll be /DRG or /WAR.

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Each of these jobs has something very important that DRK does not have....the ability to instantly remove or add something to play. DRK has slow attack speed and slow recast timers, and that's really only good for backing up one of the other jobs with some extra dmg, and turning if said dmg gets to be too much. We're attached to other DDs like a hyper-strong pet, or to healers as an MP sinkhole.

Low attack speed doesn't have as much to deal with overall enmity as just doing more damage does. DRK does have the ability to easily make a 5 hit (and maybe a 4 hit, but I haven't looked) which other DDs have to work for. DRKs recast timers aren't as bad as you make them out to be, and it shouldn't be worried about taking too much damage when compared to other DDs (aside from MNK) because of either /NIN or the mobs being piss easy. What sets DRK apart is the ability to hold some hate on mobs that can't constantly be meleed / don't take very good melee dmg, and how readily available PDT and MDT gear is for the job.

[Banter]

tl;dr
Don't hate the game, hate the player

[Goshtin]

dread spikes is another sitauational spelll
like stun.. like drain.. like aspir

a lot of the time spike swill only be half as potent.. which means you're still gonna take dmg and unless you're fighting some bizzare nm that doesnt WS.. you're better off keeping your shadows up

every DD job has had a massive increase recently
MNK: massive speed, kick attacks and tanking like a dream
WAR: huge AoE dmg inside AND outside abyssea
SAM: it's sam... what DONT they get
DRG: yes.. even the average drg has more power than the average drk. and they're ability to cure isn't reliant on the enemy they're fighting

while we lose souleater power, cant break haste, have magic that's useless but SE keeps ramming down our throat, and weaponry that's only "competing" with magian stuff

drk is having a bad time imo, and I can only hope somthing fun happens to the job or apoc at 99

[Virginia]

Thank you, gosh.

Again, I'm talking about survivability, because a dead tank can't tank. We simply don't have enough ways to nullify/evade damage that flows together particularly well, unless we're fighting something DC-T. If it's a VT, there's no way we're tanking it outside of having an Apoc.

Also, one of the relic monks in my LS I was talking about has Mantra, and it's excellent for emergencies in that you get back a quarter of your HP, without worry of resists. Honestly, the fact that all of our defensive/healing abilities can easily be dropped to an 8th of effectiveness unless we're fighting a very narrow scope of mob types makes a huge difference.

What DRK likes fighting Imps or Bats? Undead are completely out of the question, mobs without MP fuck up our flow....just admit that it's a dependent job. The situation reminds me of THF's old plight; they required too much setup and thought to capitalize on from other party members' perspectives, so they were generally left to LFP for the rest of their days. When things like Assassin and Accomplice were introduced (also Colibri), THF became way more favorable than it ever was. Maybe not to the point where it was getting invites like a SAM, but at least THF got some invites.

DRK, on the other hand, got retarded situations - new elemental-style mobs in Abyssea that AREN'T Arcana, but we have this shiny Arcane Crest! Oh, by the way there are ancient machines that aren't the same classification as the ancient machines you're used to intimidating.

I would like to know what kind of setup you've got that drops Dread Spikes and Drain II to half, and why you think that's still acceptable at 75MP per cast for each...

This post has been edited by Virginia: 14 December 2010 - 04:52 AM

[Banter]

Goshtin, on 14 December 2010 - 03:33 AM, said:

dread spikes is another sitauational spelll
like stun.. like drain.. like aspir

a lot of the time spike swill only be half as potent.. which means you're still gonna take dmg and unless you're fighting some bizzare nm that doesnt WS.. you're better off keeping your shadows up

every DD job has had a massive increase recently
MNK: massive speed, kick attacks and tanking like a dream
WAR: huge AoE dmg inside AND outside abyssea
SAM: it's sam... what DONT they get
DRG: yes.. even the average drg has more power than the average drk. and they're ability to cure isn't reliant on the enemy they're fighting

while we lose souleater power, cant break haste, have magic that's useless but SE keeps ramming down our throat, and weaponry that's only "competing" with magian stuff

drk is having a bad time imo, and I can only hope somthing fun happens to the job or apoc at 99

I'm not saying that DRK is top of the line, and I never have, but it does make a suitable tank in any situation you need a DD tank.

P.S.

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WAR: huge AoE dmg inside AND outside abyssea

DRK gets Cleave too.

[Virginia]

Banter, on 14 December 2010 - 04:11 PM, said:

I'm not saying that DRK is top of the line, and I never have, but it does make a suitable tank in any situation you need a DD tank.

Which is EXP/Meriting by definition, when mobs live for about as long as they always have in a fast meripo. Useless.

Or are you suggesting a DRK can take a MNK's place against Charybdis?

[Banter]

Virginia, on 14 December 2010 - 04:17 PM, said:

Which is EXP/Meriting by definition, when mobs live for about as long as they always have in a fast meripo. Useless.

Or are you suggesting a DRK can take a MNK's place against Charybdis?

You only use DD tanks on merit/XP mobs? lol
But anyways, at 90, I don't think Charyb is really a good example, because it was already a joke at 75.

[Banter]

Anyways, MNK, SAM and NIN are currently the only jobs that can sub whatever they want and still make a suitable DD tank for a large amount of things. Every other job is either reliant on their sub for damage mitigate. Either /SAM, which is extremely unreliable, or /NIN, which offers no damage increase to 2handers. The only defensive ability WAR has is defender, which is a joke. DRG isn't really a tank unless it's the only available DD. Even with its self cures, DRG reliant on the pet not dying to AoE constantly, which isn't a problem against trash mobs but most other things will have something that will eventually one shot their wyvern. DRK has the shit I've already said 5 times.

For offensive/enmity gaining abilities, MNK has counters (stance and perfect counter) and top damage as well as Counterstance, which gives a nice enmity spike when used, NIN has top damage and uh... sange? WAR has provoke and retaliation (but you'll lose more enmity than gain with retaliation), SAM has meditate, hasso when not tanking and very mediocre damage. You can list pretty much every DRK defensive ability I've mentioned under this category as well, because they also help in this area - Weapon bash and Stun are good enmity spikes, Dread spikes deals good damage, Souleater and last resort give nice enmity spikes on top of their damage and Drain II gives a nice HP boost. Oh yea, and for those times when you can't deal damage, DRK and WAR are the only jobs that get a native ability to keep hate, and WAR's is only good enough to maintain the hate that it has. The only thing that DRK is lacking right now is a crit WS on its main weapons. P.S. You can fix the last one by using an axe.

Like I said, I'm not saying that DRK is the best tank or DD, but it does a fine job of both when it's needed.

[Virginia]

Banter, on 14 December 2010 - 04:26 PM, said:

You only use DD tanks on merit/XP mobs? lol
But anyways, at 90, I don't think Charyb is really a good example, because it was already a joke at 75.

it seems you're being an ass for some reason. when speaking of EXPing/Meriting by definition, i was speaking of DRK in particular. Don't try to twist my words.

Go duo Charyb with a BRD then. Give us pics.

Now you seem to want to agree with me, saying:
"Anyways, MNK, SAM and NIN are currently the only jobs that can sub whatever they want and still make a suitable DD tank for a large amount of things. Every other job is either reliant on their sub for damage mitigate." You should have stopped there. The way DRK plays is completely dependent on its sub, and you can't argue any different. You are just a gimp version of your sub with Absorb-TP, Spikes, SE and a couple Drain spells.

Also, you must be intentionally pigheaded, choosing only to acknowledge DRK's Enmity gain. NO SHIT DRK has great Enmity gain. The thing is, tanking isn't only getting and keeping hate....it's staying alive to soak up the damage. We can't soak damage, so quit talking about all that hate when it will only get you killed outside of fast chained kills (EXP/Meriting). There's a reason DDs that do too much damage opt for Enmity- merits.

The fun of playing a melee here is riding that line between restraint and knowing when you can cut loose. It's why we Souleater + LR + Guillotined at the end of Seiryu fights, Why we might try to go out swinging with Souleater and a faster weapon if a fight was going south, or using Souleater to get hate off someone who was about to die....these are all things of the past. There isn't quite so much thrill in riding the line between life and death for a DRK anymore, because we can't ride that line. It's either: 1) sub par damage on large important mobs, or 2) the mob has flaky hate order/reset and we're forced to pussy out and NOT hit, or dieif we decided to attack.

Think of it this way. how many jobs main 1h sword? Early on, it's PLD, RDM and BLU, later, it's PLD and BLU. PLD and BLU have healing spells they can use frequently, yet they still get Sanguined Blade. DRK has no worthwhile crit weaponskill, and dmg ignoring or HP restoring weaponskills are exclusively Quietus and Catastrophe...really think about how available those weaponskills are compared to things like Gekko, Atonement, Spirits within, Ascetic's Fury, Slugwinder, and then look at how modifiers affect our WSes.

Quietus: STR:35% ; MND:50% (3x dmg/Ignores Def) Empyrean
Catastrophe: INT:40% ; AGI:40% (HP Drain) Relic ***nerfed by SE***
Insurgency: STR:20% ; INT:20% (4x hit) Mythic
Spiral Hell: STR:50% ; INT:50% WSNM

Spinning Slash: STR:30% ; INT:30%
Ground Strike: STR:50% ; INT:50% WSNM
Torcleaver: VIT:60% (3x dmg) Empyrean

Drakesbane: STR:50% (4x hit/Critical) Mythic
Camlann's Torment: VIT (Unknown percentage) (3x dmg/Ignores Def) Empyrean

Ascetic's Fury: STR:50% ; VIT:50% (Critical) Mythic
Victory Smite: 50% STR (4x hit/Crit) Empyrean

Yukikaze: STR:75%
Gekko: STR:75% (Naturally high attack bonus)
Kasha: STR:75% WSNM
Kaiten: STR:60% (Store TP +7 for 20, 40 or 60 sec) Relic
Rana: STR:35% (3x hit) Mythic
Fudo: Unknown (2x dmg) Empyrean

Raging Rush: STR:35% (3x hit/Crit)
Fell Cleave: STR:60% (Area attack)
Steel Cyclone: STR:50% ; VIT:50% WSNM
Metatron Torment: STR:60% (Drop target Def/~20% dmg reduction) Relic
King's Justice: STR:50% (3x hit) Mythic
Ukko's Fury: STR 50 % (2x hit/Crit/Slows target) Empyrean

Sidewinder: STR:16%; AGI:25% (4x dmg/low acc)
Arching Arrow: STR:16%; AGI:25% (Crit)
Namas Arrow: STR:40%, AGI:40% (Ranged Acc Up) Relic
Jishnu's Radiance: Unknown (3x hit if ammo > 3/Crit) Empyrean

Slug Shot: AGI:30% (4x dmg/low acc)
Numbing Shot: Str30% Mnd 25% (3x dmg/close range)
Trueflight: AGI:30% (Light elemental dmg) Mythic
Wildfire: AGI:60% (Fire elemental dmg) Empyrean

Yeah. I think we've been getting fucked forever. There's an easy scapegoat for this, I think.....Souleater + Blood Weapon. They're afraid of it, but goddammit, we're so slow it almost makes no difference. How often do you see a KC DRK?

[Chriscoffey]

Virginia, on 14 December 2010 - 06:19 PM, said:

it seems you're being an ass for some reason. when speaking of EXPing/Meriting by definition, i was speaking of DRK in particular. Don't try to twist my words.

Go duo Charyb with a BRD then. Give us pics.

Now you seem to want to agree with me, saying:
"Anyways, MNK, SAM and NIN are currently the only jobs that can sub whatever they want and still make a suitable DD tank for a large amount of things. Every other job is either reliant on their sub for damage mitigate." You should have stopped there. The way DRK plays is completely dependent on its sub, and you can't argue any different. You are just a gimp version of your sub with Absorb-TP, Spikes, SE and a couple Drain spells.

Also, you must be intentionally pigheaded, choosing only to acknowledge DRK's Enmity gain. NO SHIT DRK has great Enmity gain. The thing is, tanking isn't only getting and keeping hate....it's staying alive to soak up the damage. We can't soak damage, so quit talking about all that hate when it will only get you killed outside of fast chained kills (EXP/Meriting). There's a reason DDs that do too much damage opt for Enmity- merits.

The fun of playing a melee here is riding that line between restraint and knowing when you can cut loose. It's why we Souleater + LR + Guillotined at the end of Seiryu fights, Why we might try to go out swinging with Souleater and a faster weapon if a fight was going south, or using Souleater to get hate off someone who was about to die....these are all things of the past. There isn't quite so much thrill in riding the line between life and death for a DRK anymore, because we can't ride that line. It's either: 1) sub par damage on large important mobs, or 2) the mob has flaky hate order/reset and we're forced to pussy out and NOT hit, or dieif we decided to attack.

Think of it this way. how many jobs main 1h sword? Early on, it's PLD, RDM and BLU, later, it's PLD and BLU. PLD and BLU have healing spells they can use frequently, yet they still get Sanguined Blade. DRK has no worthwhile crit weaponskill, and dmg ignoring or HP restoring weaponskills are exclusively Quietus and Catastrophe...really think about how available those weaponskills are compared to things like Gekko, Atonement, Spirits within, Ascetic's Fury, Slugwinder, and then look at how modifiers affect our WSes.

Quietus: STR:35% ; MND:50% (3x dmg/Ignores Def) Empyrean
Catastrophe: INT:40% ; AGI:40% (HP Drain) Relic ***nerfed by SE***
Insurgency: STR:20% ; INT:20% (4x hit) Mythic
Spiral Hell: STR:50% ; INT:50% WSNM

Spinning Slash: STR:30% ; INT:30%
Ground Strike: STR:50% ; INT:50% WSNM
Torcleaver: VIT:60% (3x dmg) Empyrean

Drakesbane: STR:50% (4x hit/Critical) Mythic
Camlann's Torment: VIT (Unknown percentage) (3x dmg/Ignores Def) Empyrean

Ascetic's Fury: STR:50% ; VIT:50% (Critical) Mythic
Victory Smite: 50% STR (4x hit/Crit) Empyrean

Yukikaze: STR:75%
Gekko: STR:75% (Naturally high attack bonus)
Kasha: STR:75% WSNM
Kaiten: STR:60% (Store TP +7 for 20, 40 or 60 sec) Relic
Rana: STR:35% (3x hit) Mythic
Fudo: Unknown (2x dmg) Empyrean

Raging Rush: STR:35% (3x hit/Crit)
Fell Cleave: STR:60% (Area attack)
Steel Cyclone: STR:50% ; VIT:50% WSNM
Metatron Torment: STR:60% (Drop target Def/~20% dmg reduction) Relic
King's Justice: STR:50% (3x hit) Mythic
Ukko's Fury: STR 50 % (2x hit/Crit/Slows target) Empyrean

Sidewinder: STR:16%; AGI:25% (4x dmg/low acc)
Arching Arrow: STR:16%; AGI:25% (Crit)
Namas Arrow: STR:40%, AGI:40% (Ranged Acc Up) Relic
Jishnu's Radiance: Unknown (3x hit if ammo > 3/Crit) Empyrean

Slug Shot: AGI:30% (4x dmg/low acc)
Numbing Shot: Str30% Mnd 25% (3x dmg/close range)
Trueflight: AGI:30% (Light elemental dmg) Mythic
Wildfire: AGI:60% (Fire elemental dmg) Empyrean

Yeah. I think we've been getting fucked forever. There's an easy scapegoat for this, I think.....Souleater + Blood Weapon. They're afraid of it, but goddammit, we're so slow it almost makes no difference. How often do you see a KC DRK?

They could have easily done the SE resist and kept the KC out of the picture and furthermore what fucking good is Zerging really anymore. I had someone trying to argue with me about the skill set level doing a zerg compared to just normal killing and made me laugh. Anyone who thinks that zerging is skill is off their rocker in terms of game knowledge. I know several LS's that can zerg just about anything YET they wipe everytime to the "normal" way. I hate zerging and since its introduction has pretty much lead to the destruction(challenges) of the game and HNMs. This is why we are playing pussy FFXI now because if you can't beat something in 5 minutes it's too hard.

This post has been edited by Chriscoffey: 14 December 2010 - 07:26 PM

[Banter]

Virginia, on 14 December 2010 - 06:19 PM, said:

it seems you're being an ass for some reason. when speaking of EXPing/Meriting by definition, i was speaking of DRK in particular. Don't try to twist my words.

Go duo Charyb with a BRD then. Give us pics.

Does DRK get bind? Oh yea, well enough of this stupid argument then.

Quote

Now you seem to want to agree with me, saying:
"Anyways, MNK, SAM and NIN are currently the only jobs that can sub whatever they want and still make a suitable DD tank for a large amount of things. Every other job is either reliant on their sub for damage mitigate."You should have stopped there. The way DRK plays is completely dependent on its sub, and you can't argue any different. You are just a gimp version of your sub with Absorb-TP, Spikes, SE and a couple Drain spells.

As is every other melee job besides the ones I listed, why try to make DRK special?

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Also, you must be intentionally pigheaded, choosing only to acknowledge DRK's Enmity gain. NO SHIT DRK has great Enmity gain. The thing is, tanking isn't only getting and keeping hate....it's staying alive to soak up the damage. We can't soak damage, so quit talking about all that hate when it will only get you killed outside of fast chained kills (EXP/Meriting). There's a reason DDs that do too much damage opt for Enmity- merits.

DRK can soak up more damage than every DD job besides SAM and MNK (maybe nin/mnk too now? lol), prove me wrong.

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The fun of playing a melee here is riding that line between restraint and knowing when you can cut loose. It's why we Souleater + LR + Guillotined at the end of Seiryu fights, Why we might try to go out swinging with Souleater and a faster weapon if a fight was going south, or using Souleater to get hate off someone who was about to die....these are all things of the past. There isn't quite so much thrill in riding the line between life and death for a DRK anymore, because we can't ride that line. It's either: 1) sub par damage on large important mobs, or 2) the mob has flaky hate order/reset and we're forced to pussy out and NOT hit, or dieif we decided to attack.

See last point.

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Think of it this way. how many jobs main 1h sword? Early on, it's PLD, RDM and BLU, later, it's PLD and BLU. PLD and BLU have healing spells they can use frequently, yet they still get Sanguined Blade. DRK has no worthwhile crit weaponskill, and dmg ignoring or HP restoring weaponskills are exclusively Quietus and Catastrophe...really think about how available those weaponskills are compared to things like Gekko, Atonement, Spirits within, Ascetic's Fury, Slugwinder, and then look at how modifiers affect our WSes.

DRK has Rampage, but outside of Drains it doesn't have a way to heal itself, but neither do most DDs short of /DNC. Also, defense ignoring WS are really weak with the current content and buffs inside of Abyssea.

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Quietus: STR:35% ; MND:50% (3x dmg/Ignores Def) Empyrean
Catastrophe: INT:40% ; AGI:40% (HP Drain) Relic ***nerfed by SE***
Insurgency: STR:20% ; INT:20% (4x hit) Mythic
Spiral Hell: STR:50% ; INT:50% WSNM

Spinning Slash: STR:30% ; INT:30%
Ground Strike: STR:50% ; INT:50% WSNM
Torcleaver: VIT:60% (3x dmg) Empyrean

Drakesbane: STR:50% (4x hit/Critical) Mythic
Camlann's Torment: VIT (Unknown percentage) (3x dmg/Ignores Def) Empyrean

Ascetic's Fury: STR:50% ; VIT:50% (Critical) Mythic
Victory Smite: 50% STR (4x hit/Crit) Empyrean

Yukikaze: STR:75%
Gekko: STR:75% (Naturally high attack bonus)
Kasha: STR:75% WSNM
Kaiten: STR:60% (Store TP +7 for 20, 40 or 60 sec) Relic
Rana: STR:35% (3x hit) Mythic
Fudo: Unknown (2x dmg) Empyrean

Raging Rush: STR:35% (3x hit/Crit)
Fell Cleave: STR:60% (Area attack)
Steel Cyclone: STR:50% ; VIT:50% WSNM
Metatron Torment: STR:60% (Drop target Def/~20% dmg reduction) Relic
King's Justice: STR:50% (3x hit) Mythic
Ukko's Fury: STR 50 % (2x hit/Crit/Slows target) Empyrean

Sidewinder: STR:16%; AGI:25% (4x dmg/low acc)
Arching Arrow: STR:16%; AGI:25% (Crit)
Namas Arrow: STR:40%, AGI:40% (Ranged Acc Up) Relic
Jishnu's Radiance: Unknown (3x hit if ammo > 3/Crit) Empyrean

Slug Shot: AGI:30% (4x dmg/low acc)
Numbing Shot: Str30% Mnd 25% (3x dmg/close range)
Trueflight: AGI:30% (Light elemental dmg) Mythic
Wildfire: AGI:60% (Fire elemental dmg) Empyrean

Yeah. I think we've been getting fucked forever. There's an easy scapegoat for this, I think.....Souleater + Blood Weapon. They're afraid of it, but goddammit, we're so slow it almost makes no difference. How often do you see a KC DRK?

You guys weren't fucked in the WS department until Abyssea, don't bitch like you've been getting fucked forever. Up until Abyssea, MNK was generally considered to have the weakest WS set (asuran was great, but always underrated because of no crits/da), where SAM was the strongest (gekko, penta). The only thing here is that you guys are missing a Crit WS on your main weapon (again, Rampage), which isn't even that big of a deal with how readily ACC is available in abyssea. You didn't need to post a list of mostly gimpy WS. Btw, among crit WS, MNK easily has the worst readily accessible one in Ascetic's Fury (meaning no empyrean) and that SAM gets absolutely no access to a usable crit ws. And you forgot to add that quite a few of those WS have attack bonus/ignore defense properties/hidden effects. Also, you forgot to post the important part of each of those stats, which is the fTP modifier.

[Virginia]

Most WS hidden effects have been garbage, aside from Guillotine's Silence, and Shield Break's Evasion Down.

If you mean to tell me most of those listed WSes are gimp, you really are a fool. Out of every weapon class i've listed there, at least one is frequently used by jobs who main such a weapon. The others were thrown in to show how other weapons' WS modifiers are generally based on stats that are naturally high for their respective users, or a stat many prefer to put points in. Rangers would be insane not to use Slugwinder, and while they are STR/AGI-based, Rangers have naturally high AGI. Before an obscene amount of ranged acc/atk gear was available, RNGs widely opted for gear that provided bonuses to AGI...later, when DEX-lust was overcome by STR by the player base, STR came into the equation, too. Ascetic's Fury is by no means shit, and carries a 50% STR 50% VIT modifier...tell me, which job has the highest VIT? Meanwhile, our counterpart, Quietus, carries 35% STR 50% MND. Sure it ignores defense, but i still think it's a little fucked that our STR mods are never above 40% unless it's Spiral Hell.

DRKs don't naturally have high mind, and have moderate INT, but when most of our damage comes from melee it becomes hard to sacrifice attack, accuracy and STR for INT. What DRK puts points into AGI (Catastrophe)? why are most of our STR modifiers 35% or less? Guillotine is only 25% STR & 25% MND. Since it's a multihit, accuracy is almost more important than anything else to maximize damage. Meanwhile, Samurai only have to worry about STR as a modifier for their 3 most popular weaponskills (Yukikaze, Gekko, Kasha), and each is 75% STR...not to mention, Gekko gains an attack bonus akin to, if not, ignore defense.

Again, DRK's ability to soak damage is based on long-ass timers. I don't know what the hell any sort of tank would do when his life depends on even a 1:30 timer, considering even a mid-level Abyssea NM can nail us for 250 damage per swing. Again, survivability is part of what makes a tank a tank. Let's put it in real-world terms. Say there's infantry following a tank that can be blown up with 3 standard clips from an AK-47. Why the hell would they bother following the tank when it can only protect them for 15-20 seconds in a firefight?

I'm telling YOU to show ME how well a DRK can perform as a tank against even a weaker Abyssea NM. As far as it looks from my angle, you're not even bringing up how much or how little a Dark Knight is hurt when hit by the NMs I've suggested. You're just telling me my spikes are awesome, and vaguely suggesting that a half-off timer for them is still adequate to stay alive. My point in bringing up Sanguined Blade was to show that well-equipped jobs just got even better equipped....this has nothing to do with other traditional DDs tanking. I feel I'd already made my point by noting how often the other jobs can either negate damage taken, or somewhat buck the system (DRG heals).

That's not all...you bring up Bind? Are you serious? I'm surprised I didn't stop reading there. What's next, DRK sleep/nuke combo?

Sam has never needed a crit WS, because they are basically a walking WS elemental. Sams WS so fast and often, giving them a Crit WS would literally obliterate the idea of melee classes in FFXI completely. Don't just argue for the sake of arguing, have a point that makes sense.

I would greatly appreciate you putting an end to this fool logic now, but would be wholly impressed if you can prove me wrong in DRK tanking vs Abyssea NMs.

This post has been edited by Virginia: 15 December 2010 - 12:50 PM

[Banter]

Virginia, on 15 December 2010 - 12:42 PM, said:

Most WS hidden effects have been garbage, aside from Guillotine's Silence, and Shield Break's Evasion Down.

What I mean was that there are a good number of WS on that list that ignore defense or have a large attack boost.

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If you mean to tell me most of those listed WSes are gimp, you really are a fool. Out of every weapon class i've listed there, at least one is frequently used by jobs who main such a weapon. The others were thrown in to show how other weapons' WS modifiers are generally based on stats that are naturally high for their respective users, or a stat many prefer to put points in. Rangers would be insane not to use Slugwinder, and while they are STR/AGI-based, Rangers have naturally high AGI. Before an obscene amount of ranged acc/atk gear was available, RNGs widely opted for gear that provided bonuses to AGI...later, when DEX-lust was overcome by STR by the player base, STR came into the equation, too. Ascetic's Fury is by no means shit, and carries a 50% STR 50% VIT modifier...tell me, which job has the highest VIT? Meanwhile, our counterpart, Quietus, carries 35% STR 50% MND. Sure it ignores defense, but i still think it's a little fucked that our STR mods are never above 40% unless it's Spiral Hell.

The majority of the WS you listed are gimp. You say that at least one WS for every class you listed is used, which is right. However, that doesn't mean that you didn't least 2-3 other WS that are crap for each weapon. If you think RNG uses Slug because it has an AGI/STR mod, you're stupid, because all bow (aside from relic, nyzul and maybe empyrean) WS have the same mods. Same goes for marks too obviously. But any RNG that was gearing for AGI before STR is an idiot, no matter what time (notable exception is seiryu's kote, but there were not str pieces there for rng until salvage). Ascetic's Fury is complete garbage outside of abyssea, regardless of it's modifiers. Inside of Abyssea, it's only good because of RR and GH atmas and its ability to crit. MNK could go and use backhand blow and put up consistent numbers comparable to asuran fists. But yea, go ahead and bitch about mods more, it's clear that you don't know what you're talking about.

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DRKs don't naturally have high mind, and have moderate INT, but when most of our damage comes from melee it becomes hard to sacrifice attack, accuracy and STR for INT. What DRK puts points into AGI (Catastrophe)? why are most of our STR modifiers 35% or less? Guillotine is only 25% STR & 25% MND. Since it's a multihit, accuracy is almost more important than anything else to maximize damage. Meanwhile, Samurai only have to worry about STR as a modifier for their 3 most popular weaponskills (Yukikaze, Gekko, Kasha), and each is 75% STR...not to mention, Gekko gains an attack bonus akin to, if not, ignore defense.

Have you even looked at other multi-hit WS? They're all the same. Have you looked at other single hit WS? They're all the same. Multi generally have low modifiers and single generally have high. I could point to Asuran fists and Ascetics Fury, Penta thrust and Gekko, Guillotine and Spiral hell etc etc. Point is, don't worry about mods on multi hit, worry about pumping you acc, atk and str up. Want to bitch about the AGI mod on Cata? RNG relic WS has a DEX mod. MNK is only VIT, and carries no attack bonus (not that cata or other relics do either), where Howling Fists has better modifiers and approx 50% ignore defense.

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Again, DRK's ability to soak damage is based on long-ass timers. I don't know what the hell any sort of tank would do when his life depends on even a 1:30 timer, considering even a mid-level Abyssea NM can nail us for 250 damage per swing. Again, survivability is part of what makes a tank a tank. Let's put it in real-world terms. Say there's infantry following a tank that can be blown up with 3 standard clips from an AK-47. Why the hell would they bother following the tank when it can only protect them for 15-20 seconds in a firefight?

Just going by your logic, PLD shouldn't be able to tank either, because it has comparable recast timers on all of its abilities. DRK (and other melee jobs) ability to soak up damage is based on its ability to count shadows and properly time stuns and Dread Spikes / Drain 2 use. If you honestly think a SAM can go and tank difficult things with just third eye, you're a fool.

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I'm telling YOU to show ME how well a DRK can perform as a tank against even a weaker Abyssea NM. As far as it looks from my angle, you're not even bringing up how much or how little a Dark Knight is hurt when hit by the NMs I've suggested. You're just telling me my spikes are awesome, and vaguely suggesting that a half-off timer for them is still adequate to stay alive. My point in bringing up Sanguined Blade was to show that well-equipped jobs just got even better equipped....this has nothing to do with other traditional DDs tanking. I feel I'd already made my point by noting how often the other jobs can either negate damage taken, or somewhat buck the system (DRG heals).

The only real DD tank that can heal themselves is MNK, once every 5 minutes. Sanguine Blade is a waste of TP unless solo, and no sword job was ever a good DD to begin with (short of empyrean). I don't know why you're bringing them into it.

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That's not all...you bring up Bind? Are you serious? I'm surprised I didn't stop reading there. What's next, DRK sleep/nuke combo?

You asked if they could Duo Charyb with a BRD, I gave you a strategy that they could solo it with. Don't like it? Q_Q more

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Sam has never needed a crit WS, because they are basically a walking WS elemental. Sams WS so fast and often, giving them a Crit WS would literally obliterate the idea of melee classes in FFXI completely. Don't just argue for the sake of arguing, have a point that makes sense.

SAM is considered as bad or worse than DRK in its current state. Don't believe me? Go read BG and see how many of the "career" SAM are playing MNK.

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I would greatly appreciate you putting an end to this fool logic now, but would be wholly impressed if you can prove me wrong in DRK tanking vs Abyssea NMs.

Thanks for the random insult.

[Chriscoffey]

Kind of a derail but i just found my gmail.com account stating i had been selected for beta testing on FF14 back when it first was released for beta.

[Virginia]

Jesus, you just don't want to read what I actually write. Other WSes were listed to show how in general, mods for other jobs make sense FOR their job. If they don't have a 40%+ mod to work with, both modifiers for a lower mod WS will pertain to what the job focuses on stat-wise anyway. If anything, I'm weirded out by the onconsistency when it comes to our WSes. Furthermore, I see Warriors alternate between Raging Rush, KJ and Fell Cleave. I swap between Guillotine, Cross Reaper and Spinning Slash. The Monk I know doesn't need Howling Fist, Asuran Fists OR Final Heaven anymore, because his Ascetic's Fury does 780-2400 damage.....anywhere. He does not yet have RR. Other monks I knew had used Asuran and Howling Fists. Again, "SAM's 3 most popular WSes," they always use Yuki, Gekko and Kasha. I even see them self-chaining with Rana on mobs weak to Darkness.

You gave me the strategy of "Bind". Ok, so again, fucking prove it.

SAM is in no way bad or worse than DRK. have you lost your goddamn mind?! Career [insert non-MNK DD here] are moving to Monk because it's way overpowered now.

"Just going by your logic, PLD shouldn't be able to tank either, because it has comparable recast timers on all of its abilities. DRK (and other melee jobs) ability to soak up damage is based on its ability to count shadows and properly time stuns and Dread Spikes / Drain 2 use. If you honestly think a SAM can go and tank difficult things with just third eye, you're a fool."

You're insane. Drain 2 and Dread Spikes aren't "abilities," since you seem to be specifically taking the word as it's used in game. Paladins also have naturally High defense, and respectable Cure spells that have around 5 second recast timers.

While we're at it, why bother saying SAM can't tank with 3rd eye alone? DRK can't tank with 1 round of Spikes and a Drain II alone. MNK has some issues too without /NIN, but much less than the other two. If you assume SAM and DRK have /NIN subs, keep in mind that a DRK's damage output suffers greatly from a /NIN sub. A SAM/NIN can easily take your hate, based simply on their Store TP, Reliable WS arsenal, lower attack delay, and Hasso for natural Haste+attk/acc/STR. When it comes to holding hate, SAM will have Seigan and Third Eye up, with Seigan granting the occasional Counter. Samurai Also enjoy a B+ Evasion Skill and A- Parrying....Dark Knights have a C in Evasion, and an E Parrying skill. Say both jobs are capped in their respective skills, I see the guy with A & B skills living longer than the one with C & E skills.