[Gredival]

Banter, on 18 December 2010 - 07:33 AM, said:

Calling bullshit here. The number of people I know who had Adaberk when it was good that are actually competent players, and not just retards flailing about in gear they're told is good, is about the same % to that of overall competent players to the general idiot populous. The majority of Adaberks I've seen always ran around in askar head/body, full time aurum shoes and other crap without swapping gear at all.

Better than Ruby Rings, Exorcist Hose, AF1 feet, and Chiv Chains.

[Banter]

Gredival, on 18 December 2010 - 08:23 AM, said:

Better than Ruby Rings, Exorcist Hose, AF1 feet, and Chiv Chains.

I'd rather have someone who knows how to play their job, regardless of their gear. However, a person who knows how to play generally has decent gear, so that's a pretty rare situation.

[XyonBlade]

Wow, so many paragraphs.

I am not a drk, but this isn't really a discussion about drk's any more so I'll jump in.

In general, I disagree with the competition aspect of NM's, especially for those that pop once a day or less frequently. I'm a generally high skill player with less than enough time to dedicate to the time based things like the 24+ hour monsters. Anything respawning between 20 minutes to maybe 4 hours between spawns is probably the sweet spot. Competition for those seems fine enough. I also enjoy the new experience system in abyssea, obtaining levels and merits should not be hard, but I think fighting NMs should be. Atma for the most part does seem over the top. I also have no problem with spawned NMs.

I think the main problem with the new gear, is that in the past, most gear from lvl 1-75 had nothing special other than giving higher defense. And now there's useful stats all over the place. The progression of better gear was never a kind of slope that gets better. How gear used to be was a flat line of suck, and a sharp spike of really good. Or if there was good low level gear, you'd probably wear it even at 75 because of nothing being better. So the perception of new gear now, for most of us who started in 2004-2005 is skewed because of the vast majority of absolute suck we had to deal with.

And this whole relic thing is pretty messed up, but it was bound to happen with the level increase, they could have dealt with it better though.

Anyhoo, why so much hate going around? It seems about as childish about arguing about NFL or anything else that is not important.

[pathwriter]

Gredival, on 18 December 2010 - 02:42 AM, said:

Because people want it? Sorry but the whole point of this debate has been about the validity of popularity.

You spent the better part of a week crafting such brilliant responses as these?

This debate hasn't been about the validity of popularity, but do feel free to twist yourself around three times to prove it. I really don't give a shit since I can predict the arguments you'd use and, mostly, I just don't care. But the claim you made is that the developers had no reason to make things more attainable for the general population. This is a failure of basic logic. The developers have a very good reason: profit. Have you glanced at FFXIV? It pretty much epitomizes the "Thank you, sir, may I have another!?" fraternity hazing style of MMO that you love and it is TANKING. Lunatics like you aren't even a blip on the economic scale and pleasing people like you is something that no profit-seeking entity would do (outside of an S&M club, of course). Since the inception of Nidhogg, King Behemoth, and Aspidochelone and their associated abjurations, huge sections of the playerbase have been complaining about them. Fafnir and company went from a fun NM you might go out to camp with your LS to something that linkshells were dedicated to camping daily. And I'm talking pre-NA release, by the way, so the complaints are coming from the Japanese players who ought to love the mind-numbing, soul-crushing grind more than anyone except their cousins to the west (Korea).

There is no compelling reason to continue the model of MMO that you've convinced yourself you like. You'll never admit it, but I'm certain you'd hate an MMO that consisted exclusively of one room in which a single enemy spawned once per day for which a population of 200 people had to compete to claim and kill, much though that's the model you claim to want. If nothing else, you'd whine that by virtue of having no other zones, you'd have to get your Hecatomb Subligar as a drop rather than spending outrageous amounts of gil and time to get the -1 crafted. The surest way to check if a nerd is still alive is not to check for a pulse or air in the lungs but to listen for the never-ending litany of complaints. Meanwhile, though, you've yet to provide even a remotely reasonable explanation of why developers should want to produce a game that punishes and discourages 99.99% of its paying customers. Repeat: look at FFXIV.

[Gredival]

Banter, on 18 December 2010 - 09:36 AM, said:

I'd rather have someone who knows how to play their job, regardless of their gear. However, a person who knows how to play generally has decent gear, so that's a pretty rare situation.

You expect people who don't care enough to buy themselves some Dusk Feet to be skilled?

Here's the main difference here. I expect pretty much 99.5% of players not in an HNMLS to be complete short bus quality retards. The rest of you for whatever reason hate HNMLS and think that the talent level there is somehow worse than the talent level of the general populace. I can understand not everyone in HNMLS are good, I've seen my fair share of scrub shells sustained by overachieving vs. talent, but to consider it at or worse than the level of even rudimentary end game shells is ridiculously biased. I don't think an alliance comprised of the general populace, at 75, would be able to beat Fafnir. Why? Because I was treated to watching bad groups regularly wipe to Faf.

path said:

You spent the better part of a week crafting such brilliant responses as these?

Finals.

Quote

This debate hasn't been about the validity of popularity, but do feel free to twist yourself around three times to prove it. I really don't give a shit since I can predict the arguments you'd use and, mostly, I just don't care. But the claim you made is that the developers had no reason to make things more attainable for the general population. This is a failure of basic logic. The developers have a very good reason: profit. Have you glanced at FFXIV? It pretty much epitomizes the "Thank you, sir, may I have another!?" fraternity hazing style of MMO that you love and it is TANKING. Lunatics like you aren't even a blip on the economic scale and pleasing people like you is something that no profit-seeking entity would do (outside of an S&M club, of course). Since the inception of Nidhogg, King Behemoth, and Aspidochelone and their associated abjurations, huge sections of the playerbase have been complaining about them. Fafnir and company went from a fun NM you might go out to camp with your LS to something that linkshells were dedicated to camping daily. And I'm talking pre-NA release, by the way, so the complaints are coming from the Japanese players who ought to love the mind-numbing, soul-crushing grind more than anyone except their cousins to the west (Korea).

1) FF14 had a lot more flaws than what you term as "my style" considering there is nothing resembling Kings in that game and so far the "NMs" they have reintroduced seem to be based off the more recent XI Pop NMs.

2) Okay that was sloppy phrasing by me. Yes there is a significant business incentive to do that. People don't like when games remind them that they are bad. What I was trying to say is that's no reason to ruin games. But I guess that's how the business side of gaming is taking over now that it's more than a niche hobby.

Quote

You'll never admit it, but I'm certain you'd hate an MMO that consisted exclusively of one room in which a single enemy spawned once per day for which a population of 200 people had to compete to claim and kill, much though that's the model you claim to want. If nothing else, you'd whine that by virtue of having no other zones, you'd have to get your Hecatomb Subligar as a drop rather than spending outrageous amounts of gil and time to get the -1 crafted.

It's common sense that there's a scale for content. Have I argued for the removal of content like Assault/SCNM/ANNM/Nyzul/MMM anywhere? Even if we're going to remove all content besides world spawns, which I never even said was necessary, have I even ever said that *every* world spawn should be 21-24 hrs? Leaping Lizzy spawned a hell of a lot more often than Fafnir for a reason. I'm pretty sure you'll be hard pressed to find a post where I argue that SE should make every HNM 21-24 hrs.

What I take issue with is how when people couldn't get shit from the top level of the pyramid where the competition was understandably most intense and the gear was the best, they bitched. People start with the assumption that every piece of gear should be accessible to them. I start from the presumption that your gear should be limited by how far the pyramid you climb up and that a good deal of players should and will probably be unable to reach the top.

But everyone wants the shiniest shit. The result? Abyssea, the escalator content system, where even the big-bad of the entire expansion Shinryu is soloable.

Quote

There is no compelling reason to continue the model of MMO that you've convinced yourself you like... Meanwhile, though, you've yet to provide even a remotely reasonable explanation of why developers should want to produce a game that punishes and discourages 99.99% of its paying customers. Repeat: look at FFXIV.

Artistic integrity. Gamers want stupid things. See SCII community complaining that the game is too hard and to remove the league rankings because being relegated into bronze sucks.

http://killingifrit....d/page__st__120

[pathwriter]

Blizzard is famous for spending too much time listening to its users in a bad way. But on the subject of "Gamers want stupid things," hold up a mirror.

The Shinryuu thing is flawed, I'll grant you. For the most part, though, the "top of the pyramid" stuff has always required a significant investment of time and effort. Is it easier to get Bale Cuirass +2 than Armada Hauberk? Yup. But, and this is one of those important facts you keep ignoring in hopes that it'll go away: IT'S ARTIFACT ARMOR! Relic armor was many times easier to get than a relic weapon, even though I know some people who've spent as long or longer trying to get their Assassin's Armlets or Melee Cyclas than getting an Apocalypse or Aegis. You're going to object that EAF (AF3, Empyrean armor, whatever the fuck you want to call it) is leagues ahead of most gear presently attainable. And it is. Artifact armor and at least some Relic armor (we can both agree that SE has gotten better about trash gear) were top tier at the time they were introduced. Both were eclipsed in time, both by leveling up and by extra gear being added. And, go figure, this is brand new content and we're only at the level 90 cap out of 99. So your constant petulant whining about how everyone and their mother is getting the best of the best, which is horseshit, effortlessly is ill-timed, to say nothing of wrong-headed, irritating, and unjustified.

[Banter]

pathwriter, on 18 December 2010 - 03:50 PM, said:

Blizzard is famous for spending too much time listening to its users in a bad way. But on the subject of "Gamers want stupid things," hold up a mirror.

The Shinryuu thing is flawed, I'll grant you. For the most part, though, the "top of the pyramid" stuff has always required a significant investment of time and effort. Is it easier to get Bale Cuirass +2 than Armada Hauberk? Yup. But, and this is one of those important facts you keep ignoring in hopes that it'll go away: IT'S ARTIFACT ARMOR! Relic armor was many times easier to get than a relic weapon, even though I know some people who've spent as long or longer trying to get their Assassin's Armlets or Melee Cyclas than getting an Apocalypse or Aegis. You're going to object that EAF (AF3, Empyrean armor, whatever the fuck you want to call it) is leagues ahead of most gear presently attainable. And it is. Artifact armor and at least some Relic armor (we can both agree that SE has gotten better about trash gear) were top tier at the time they were introduced. Both were eclipsed in time, both by leveling up and by extra gear being added. And, go figure, this is brand new content and we're only at the level 90 cap out of 99. So your constant petulant whining about how everyone and their mother is getting the best of the best, which is horseshit, effortlessly is ill-timed, to say nothing of wrong-headed, irritating, and unjustified.

Nah, its ok path. He has a d.ring. He knows what he's talking about.

[Gredival]

Banter, on 18 December 2010 - 07:41 PM, said:

Nah, its ok path. He has a d.ring. He knows what he's talking about.

Good to see someone sees the light.

[firefeng]

Even your attempts at sarcasm are short-sighted and annoying.

[Banter]

firefeng, on 21 December 2010 - 01:16 PM, said:

Even your attempts at sarcasm are short-sighted and annoying.

Hey fuck you buddy.

[CerGoltana]

Banter, on 18 December 2010 - 07:41 PM, said:

Nah, its ok path. He has a d.ring. He knows what he's talking about.

Thats the golden rule. He who has the gold, makes the rule.

[Banter]

CerGoltana, on 21 December 2010 - 03:53 PM, said:

Thats the golden rule. He who has the gold, makes the rule.

D.ring is green, fool.