[Gredival]

Banter, on 04 December 2010 - 01:43 PM, said:

And you still don't get the hint? The game is leagues ahead of where it was before. But with change there is always the stubborn old regime that wants to cling on to whatever got it to wherever it is, no matter how shitty it is.

Everything that you think of as progress, I think of as regress. You're not right just because "most people" agree with you. Your little potshots aren't going to convince me of anything unless you're actually willing to sit down and bother posting anything above fifty words for a change.

[Goshtin]

have they revealed what the 90 trial is for apoc yet?
did they ever tell us before hand?

[Virginia]

Gredival, on 04 December 2010 - 10:03 AM, said:

And I care about people who are wrong why?

Maybe it's snark, but this line is a pretty good thing to put at the front of a post to make one look unfit for debate.

At that point, you get into the "subjective/objective" arguement.

[Gredival]

Virginia, on 04 December 2010 - 04:05 PM, said:

Maybe it's snark, but this line is a pretty good thing to put at the front of a post to make one look unfit for debate.

At that point, you get into the "subjective/objective" arguement.

1) It's was a response to the claim "nearly everyone says otherwise." By asserting "They are wrong and thus I don't care" the implicit argument is that wrongness/rightness is absolute, not determined by democratic vote.

2) It's partially snark because there's not much point in devoting more effort responding to Banter. I've argued this point dozens and dozens of times with other people at KI; usually even if opinions don't change, the people that argue with me at least usually come away with a better understanding of the "absurd" position by understanding what sorts of things I place value on such that I find world spawns best. Banter however rarely ever engages in the details of these discussions and just comes in with a trademark one-liners directed at 1-2 sentences of posts that go on for paragraphs upon paragraphs. Spending any more time responding to him is just troll-feeding

This post has been edited by Gredival: 04 December 2010 - 05:49 PM

[Banter]

Gredival, on 04 December 2010 - 05:32 PM, said:

1) It's was a response to the claim "nearly everyone says otherwise." By asserting "They are wrong and thus I don't care" the implicit argument is that wrongness/rightness is absolute, not determined by democratic vote.

2) I've argued this point dozens and dozens of times with other people at KI; usually even if opinions don't change, the people that argue with me at least usually come away with a better understanding of the "absurd" position by understanding what sorts of things I place value on such that I find world spawns best. Banter however rarely ever engages in the details of these discussions and just comes in with a trademark one-liners directed at 1-2 sentences of posts that go on for paragraphs upon paragraphs.

Most things aren't worth reading more than a few paragraphs really. However, I will say that whether or not the game has gotten better is subjective to the person playing it. Opinions and all that jazz.

[Banter]

That being said, you're still wrong.

[Gredival]

It's not about opinions per se. It's about values. Most everyone has the same opinion about what Abyssea did to the game... it's just the differing conclusions about whether what it did was beneficial/hurtful are based on priorities/values.

And there's plenty of room to call people's values into question, it's just that people usually don't budge. But whenever I defend world spawns, I do it by citing how world spawns are best at encouraging competition, increasing gear rarity/longevity, excluding casual and bad players, and focusing the game on character completion as an arduous but obtainable challenge. And then I defend these as positive influences by referencing gaming in general, competition in general, etc.

To the extent that people advocate different systems in trying to promote the same values, that's usually where people are proven right/wrong. For instance, which system best encourages skill, is not merely a matter of opinion, that is a matter of theoretical and empirical analysis. We can examine what the systems force people to do, and what effect that has on the player base.

This post has been edited by Gredival: 04 December 2010 - 05:58 PM

[Chriscoffey]

Banter, on 04 December 2010 - 05:47 PM, said:

That being said, you're still wrong.

I agree with Gred. myself. That is my own opinion. What i find funny about this is the same people who enjoyed previous FFXI experiences are the same people that seem to have plenty of information to back up their opinions. Banter not one time have you in any post shown some type of logical rebuttal to anything said. You previously said K CLUB was better than APOCALYPSE for zerging without any information to that said fact. Anyone that was saying different was wrong . I found the post and calculations proving your wrong. Banter instead of shooting your mouth off prove someone wrong with logic and information instead of saying YOUR WRONG, YOU"RE AN IDIOT. Seems to me you are the one who can't reason and prove yourself right.

This post has been edited by Chriscoffey: 04 December 2010 - 08:41 PM

[UNCTGTG]

Goshin,

That is what I said to my LS, I had bout 10 people go back through the postings and there was no mention of trials.

1) leads me to believe there aren't any new trials coming
2) they are hiding the best until mOnday.

[Banter]

Chriscoffey, on 04 December 2010 - 06:00 PM, said:

I agree with Gred. myself. That is my own opinion. What i find funny about this is the same people who enjoyed previous FFXI experiences are the same people that seem to have plenty of information to back up their opinions. Banter not one time have you in any post shown some type of logical rebuttal to anything said. You previously said K CLUB was better than APOCALYPSE for zerging without any information to that said fact. Anyone that was saying different was wrong . I found the post and calculations proving your wrong. Banter instead of shooting your mouth off prove someone wrong with logic and information instead of saying YOUR WRONG, YOU"RE AN IDIOT. Seems to me you are the one who can't reason and prove yourself right.

Ok, want me to break it down a bit?

1. Lesser NMs for AF3 seals. Pop items drop fairly commonly off of the mobs surrounding where they pop, and are easy to kill, as well as making progress to higher tier NMs. Also, 4 types of seals drop a mob, encouraging people to play together (generally).
2. Higher tier NMs drop better loot, as well as items for Empyrean weapons.
3. Atma and shit. Anyone who says that Abyssea buffs aren't fun are either a DRK, SAM or stupid.
4. Ease of travel. Like wasting 15 minutes running to Airy? Me either. Like running around the same zone for 15 minutes between mobs? Me either. Abyssea lets us port around quickly.
5. Lower tier gear is extremely easy to get, and is generally reasonable to full time if you don't have any high end stuff.
6. Higher tier NM require effort, they will not just fall into your hands.
7. They finally found a way to incorporate BLM and SCH into the standard XP parties, while also increasing the average rate of XP exponentially. The grind was always one of the most dreaded parts of FFXI, and now its been mostly nerfed.
9. Merits are no longer something to brag about (which they shouldn't be), but are just another way to specialize your job to a point.
10. AF3 is great for every job. No more wasting slots on trash like AF1 or AF2, this stuff is actually useful.
11. Not many world spawn NMs / more force popped NMs. Instead of competing for the only mob in the zone, you're now just trying to be able to kill it. Depending on the mob, it can be really easy (see: t1 NMs) or fairly difficult (see: taurus NM). No more wasting 3 hours of time for someone else to get a claim. If you put in the time, you'll be rewarded, regardless of your computer specs.

Not very organized, these were just some things I could think of off of the top of my head.

[Gredival]

Quote

Lesser NMs for AF3 seals. Pop items drop fairly commonly off of the mobs surrounding where they pop, and are easy to kill, as well as making progress to higher tier NMs.

Detrimentally increases accessibility to gear and equalizes the player base. Even bad players can, over time, get good gear through questing. Even if World Spawns weren't optimal, there were bad players who DID get effectively excluded from top tier gear because LS's wouldn't want to waste drops on them.

Quote

Also, 4 types of seals drop a mob, encouraging people to play together (generally)

Having gear that spans multiple jobs accomplishes the same goal, or having lootpools with items for multiple types of jobs (Nidhogg would be a prime example of something for everyone).

Quote

Higher tier NMs drop better loot, as well as items for Empyrean weapons.

This argument doesn't make sense; content is better because the loot is better? In that case the argument goes either way and I can just say "Well if Abyssea never came along then my content would be better."

And Empyrians are detrimental. Everyone walks around with something relic level or better.

Quote

Atma and shit. Anyone who says that Abyssea buffs aren't fun are either a DRK, SAM or stupid.

Obsoletes the value of gear, not rare enough, and makes the game too easy. It's only fun in a "It's fun to curb stomp shit" sort of way.

Quote

Ease of travel. Like wasting 15 minutes running to Airy? Me either. Like running around the same zone for 15 minutes between mobs? Me either. Abyssea lets us port around quickly.

Willing to grant this, but I point out the fact that the instanced nature of Abyssea dooms it to be repetitive like Dynamis.

Quote

Lower tier gear is extremely easy to get, and is generally reasonable to full time if you don't have any high end stuff.

Detrimental. See response to first item.

Quote

Higher tier NM require effort, they will not just fall into your hands.

Marginally. Players are so overpowered with stat buffs and Atma, nothing is really challenging relatively. Lots of +2 level NMs are easily duo/trio'd. Even the worst ones take eight at most.

Quote

They finally found a way to incorporate BLM and SCH into the standard XP parties, while also increasing the average rate of XP exponentially. The grind was always one of the most dreaded parts of FFXI, and now its been mostly nerfed.

Merits are no longer something to brag about (which they shouldn't be), but are just another way to specialize your job to a point.

Makes it too easy for people to be fully merited; devalues the accomplishment of being "fully merited" and bestows undue rewards on idiots as long as they can manage to sit in the XP party long enough. Beforehand a retarded DD would get kicked and be doomed to try merit inefficiently with other poor DDs. Now even if they suck ass, getting 600 xp/mob can carry them to the finish line.

Quote

AF3 is great for every job. No more wasting slots on trash like AF1 or AF2, this stuff is actually useful.

No inherent benefit. Previous content had good drops, this content has good drops. What is the significance of those drops being AF3 rather than say E. Bodies?

Quote

Not many world spawn NMs / more force popped NMs. Instead of competing for the only mob in the zone, you're now just trying to be able to kill it. Depending on the mob, it can be really easy (see: t1 NMs) or fairly difficult (see: taurus NM). No more wasting 3 hours of time for someone else to get a claim. If you put in the time, you'll be rewarded, regardless of your computer specs.

Competition is good, therefore this is the single greatest drawback to Abyssea. I could post over a hundred pages on why every "drawback" of World Spawns are justified by the competitive elements, or are actually benefits. But I know it wouldn't do any good so I'll just leave it at that.

And nothing is fairly difficult. Admittedly right before Abyssea most old content had become easy due to merits, gear, etc. but it was still harder relatively than Abyssea NMs now. People can duo/trio most of the top tier NMs. You weren't going to duo Nidhogg, even if you could claim it.

This post has been edited by Gredival: 04 December 2010 - 09:47 PM

[Xairos]

A very interesting topic, this changing of the MMOs of this generation.

To Gred, I ask you this:

Ultimately, what do you expect from the mmo that you play as far as player base is concerned? Do you prefer a rather robust one, filled with the varying spectrum of "skilled" and "noob"? I'll say that I do agree with your meritocratic view of play, but I also favor the presence of the unskilled; they usually have fresh takes on many things I would consider law (game law). But this is not my only reason for at least somewhat liking the turn that SE has taken with XI.

Recently I have been wanting to return to the game, however I have been hesitant only because of knowing what the game will play like when I return: Abyssea > XP > Merit > "get lucky and gear hunt" > Repeat.

I love the atmosphere of XI: players having the option to play ALL jobs on one character as opposed to having to make 8 different ones; the game making the player feel (story-wise) as if she/he is the glue that holds everything together. But at the end of the day I feel like my accomplishments are all for naught when compared to the goals of missions beat/gear obtained/spells/unlocked/bosses felled/etc. This keeps me from plunging back in.

To Banter:

When I look to the future of an MMO style that XI is heading toward (complete with the things you described in your break down), I can see the player-base creating a much much finer line of authority. As of now, we have the +3s to look at as a "defining line" between casuals and non-casuals (well, maybe not; im assuming by lack of people talking about the +3 AF3). But I ask you: What will the player-base define as the new hardcore once we reach 99? AF3 will be the standard at that point. Atmas will be the standard at that point.

I had some facet of respect for people who (pre-abyssea) had 5 75s, who knew their stuff in Nyzul, who had CoP, ToAU, RoZ and WotG either beat or were up to date on their missions, who downed world bosses and gods in Sea and Sky. The reason was mostly due to recognizing that they must have had to devote a lot of time in order to obtain it; Time that I couldn't devote.

Yes that respect has waned due to level cap increase. But for me it has introduced a new feeling: possibility. Now I can see what they saw in a fraction of that time I once revered.

Anyway, I feel that as long as MMOs are being played, no matter the game mechanics be they casual or hardcore, players will always find something new to respect and hold as worth the time/effort to obtain.

This post has been edited by Xairos: 04 December 2010 - 11:38 PM

[Arkanethered]

UNCTGTG, on 04 December 2010 - 07:38 PM, said:

Goshin,

That is what I said to my LS, I had bout 10 people go back through the postings and there was no mention of trials.

1) leads me to believe there aren't any new trials coming
2) they are hiding the best until mOnday.

I'm expecting another mediocre damage increase at the low low price of 40+ hours of your time.

Any Asuran Apocs that wanna team up on this bullshit when its released get ahold of me.

[hexagram23]

Gredival, on 04 December 2010 - 03:11 PM, said:

Everything that you think of as progress, I think of as regress. You're not right just because "most people" agree with you. Your little potshots aren't going to convince me of anything unless you're actually willing to sit down and bother posting anything above fifty words for a change.

I don't get your angle here.

Most people disagree with you. It has nothing to do with being right or wrong. People are defending Abyssea and all these new updates because they enjoy them. You're criticizing Abyssea....why exactly? If you don't like it not only do you not have to go, you don't even have to talk about it. None of us care if you continue playing or quit, so it's not as if your stance needs to be defended or explained. You don't like Abyssea....awsome! Don't go. Or do go. Nobody cares really. Neither side is going to budge on the topic so this discussion is retarded.

Instead of sitting here debating about how FFXI isn't as good as it used to be, find something you like as much as you used to like FFXI. Because those days are long gone and reminiscing about "the good old days" ain't gonna bring them back.

[pathwriter]

Oh boy, Gredival is pulling this shit again.

[Banter]

Gredival, on 04 December 2010 - 09:43 PM, said:

Detrimentally increases accessibility to gear and equalizes the player base. Even bad players can, over time, get good gear through questing. Even if World Spawns weren't optimal, there were bad players who DID get effectively excluded from top tier gear because LS's wouldn't want to waste drops on them.

The thing is, AF3+1 is supposed to be standard for anyone semi serious about playing. Making it inaccessible to someone just because they don't have the latest packet bot is only going to drive people who don't cheat away.

Quote

Having gear that spans multiple jobs accomplishes the same goal, or having lootpools with items for multiple types of jobs (Nidhogg would be a prime example of something for everyone).

Except that Nidhogg is somewhat of a rarity among old HNM in having multiple useful items it can drop, and even then it only has 4 useful drops, most of which aren't good for more than 3 jobs. Black belt item for MNK - which isn't even a direct drop, A.body for RDM and E.Body for all 3 on it. N.legs had a little more range, but was also a WS only piece. If you want to throw in martial body, it's only real use was for Rampart after the magic stoneskin buff, and that's obviously only for PLD. This does bring a few more jobs to the plate, but at the cost of a 3-7 day or more NM. With the time you spend camping for Nid, you could easily have capped every job I listed on af3+1 and most likely +2.

Also, Dynamis is a prime example of bringing every job to the table, but the majority of gear in dynamis is nearly worthless/absolutely worthless. There are only a handful of jobs that can put every single piece of af2 to use at some point, but no job gets to use them all commonly or for extended periods.

Quote

This argument doesn't make sense; content is better because the loot is better? In that case the argument goes either way and I can just say "Well if Abyssea never came along then my content would be better."

And Empyrians are detrimental. Everyone walks around with something relic level or better.

Not really sure where I was going with that to be honest, however not everyone is going to be walking around with Empyreans. Even the WoE weapons with the Empyrean WS won't drop out of the sky for you, although with some luck you can finish all of your coins in one night.

Quote

Obsoletes the value of gear, not rare enough, and makes the game too easy. It's only fun in a "It's fun to curb stomp shit" sort of way.

Gear still maters, just different stats now. Haste, double and triple attack, +crit and +crit dmg are all important now, instead of just Haste, ACC and throw in some DA/TA if you can spare it.

Quote

Willing to grant this, but I point out the fact that the instanced nature of Abyssea dooms it to be repetitive like Dynamis.

There is already nearly half as much to do in the 6 abyssea areas as there was in the game before it, and we're still one scheduled add-on and a few level caps away from the planned finish. Some of the older events took longer, but that didn't make them less repetitive, like dynamis, limbus or salvage.

Quote

Detrimental. See response to first item.

I wouldn't call it detrimental to make something like Perle decent to use, but also accessible to the common player. In FFXI before, if you didn't have end game gear, you wouldn't get invited to do end game events, which leads to a vicious circle.

Quote

Marginally. Players are so overpowered with stat buffs and Atma, nothing is really challenging relatively. Lots of +2 level NMs are easily duo/trio'd. Even the worst ones take eight at most.

Yea, they generally are, but you're also going to use up more of your time low manning stuff as well, instead of just doing with 6-12 people and killing mobs in 5-10 minutes. Unless you'd like SE to add another 18hr fight again?

Quote

Makes it too easy for people to be fully merited; devalues the accomplishment of being "fully merited" and bestows undue rewards on idiots as long as they can manage to sit in the XP party long enough. Beforehand a retarded DD would get kicked and be doomed to try merit inefficiently with other poor DDs. Now even if they suck ass, getting 600 xp/mob can carry them to the finish line.

Like I said, merits aren't supposed to be valuable, but a way to customize your character. You're still stuck in the old mind set of bragging about how many merits you have.

Quote

No inherent benefit. Previous content had good drops, this content has good drops. What is the significance of those drops being AF3 rather than say E. Bodies?

While you can bring up stuff like E.body all day long, you forget to mention the hundreds and hundreds of other drops pre-Abyssea that had absolutely no purpose or were so situational that they didn't warrant wasting an inventory slot. See my point about dynamis earlier. Throwing in a bunch of trash to fill in a handful of good drops that have a good chance of not even showing their face.

[Banter]

Apparently you can only have so many quote so here's the rest

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Competition is good, therefore this is the single greatest drawback to Abyssea. I could post over a hundred pages on why every "drawback" of World Spawns are justified by the competitive elements, or are actually benefits. But I know it wouldn't do any good so I'll just leave it at that.

You say this like it's some sort of fact, but competition and how it relates to FFXI are generally negative. SE started to fix this when they added a challenging (yet defeatable) mob like PW, but the problem is that they didn't put enough of them in the game. This is the kind of competition that makes games flourish, not packet bots and MPKing each other.

Quote

And nothing is fairly difficult. Admittedly right before Abyssea most old content had become easy due to merits, gear, etc. but it was still harder relatively than Abyssea NMs now. People can duo/trio most of the top tier NMs. You weren't going to duo Nidhogg, even if you could claim it.

The only thing keeping Nidhogg from being done lowman was it's regen, which does work to keep more people there to kill it but it only adds an arbitrary barrier to killing it. The same goes for Kirin and other mobs like it. I'd rather something be challenging to low man (see: require some amount of skill) than requiring extra people to brainlessly whack shit til it's dead.

Oh, I did forget to mention in my first post about drop rates. Now, if you do have the resources available or are smart enough, you can drastically increase your drop rates on any mob by procing the correct !!. If you don't want to, you can go back to killing shit the old way and waiting for your 5-10% drops.

[Soichiro]

As we start up the derail train to get you quoting rtards some breathing room, here's a pic of the BEST WORLD SPAWN EVAR

This post has been edited by Soichiro: 05 December 2010 - 02:08 PM

[Wildstriker]

Soichiro, on 05 December 2010 - 02:02 PM, said:

As we start up the derail train to get you quoting rtards some breathing room, here's a pic of the BEST WORLD SPAWN EVAR

Slanderer. I object to this photograph.

[Banter]

lol