[Gredival]

Come back? I never quit. And I've been a vocal opponent of Abyssea, whenever the subject is broached, since like Week 2. And actually I tend not to go trolling to start the fights. The only reason there's a discussion here is because someone reacted to my comment that I hoped Tanaka came back to XI. The reason for that debate in the DRK thread? Someone called me out on my signature.

I'm not a hypocrite. I tell people "You don't like Kings but want the gear? Fucking suck it up, do it for the gear or don't get the gear." I don't like Abyssea. Doesn't mean I'm going to refuse to do it. I still want the rewards.

I'm arguing on a meta-level that I want a return to previous style/form of content.

[Corrderio]

I meant you left KI after getting slamed, go on Neko telling someone not to come back with bullshit reasons, then come right back here arguing when it's obvious everyond disagress with you.

Seriously, if you're going to cry this much just quit the game already.

[Gredival]

First, "left KI after getting slammed"? I posted there while I was bored that no one was responding here. Are you fucking blind? I've responded to every single post here.

Second, I didn't tell them not to come back with bullshit reasons. I didn't even address OP, I disputed a completely separate argument someone else made trying to say "Abyssea is not casual it's just more sane and attainable now!" which to me is basically trying to downplay how much this game got fucking nerfed so they can try relate these paltry accomplishments as something worthwhile.

Third, "slammed"? Only if you think that "rightness" is determined by popularity. One of the very points in contention. I don't care that people like you that couldn't take world spawns and didn't like the competition disagree with me. Just like Tanaka, I think there's a vision for games that extends beyond giving pleebs what they ask for.

Fourth, once again we got Abyssea because the shit of the game cried enough about Kings and their inability to get Adaberks. We got the 2H patch and Hasso because gimp 2H's whined about not getting into merit parties. So let's hope those accounts SE has here and BG are still active to watch all the crying about Abyssea.

[Aleera]

Gredival, on 11 December 2010 - 01:31 AM, said:

Here's the funny thing about elitist egos and and them lording gear over you and such. If you truly do feel this is just a game then you too care too much. If others having gear you can't get bothers you, then you care about that gear. If you want gear to be more accessible to everyone, you want that gear. The only way you can actually be insulted by egos that insult you is if you actually believe what they say (and this is ridiculous in and of itself because I don't remember the last time any "elitist" went around lording his Adaberk over random people he didn't know; most run-ins with "egos" are when people get butthurt and can't take the criticism when they apply to an HNMLS that says they aren't good enough).

I'm not butthurt over anything. I've acquired gear at my own pace and never let people discourage me too much. The thing is, you say you don't see people flaunting their gear at others who are, for a lack of a better term, "less fortunate" than yourself, but I've seen it plenty of times in my day. Not just to me, but to others around me. I can't tell you how many times I've partied and had people drop because some asshat was mocking their gear choices or telling people how they can't wait to level in their leet gear, and have WS numbers in their bazaar quotes and whatnot. It's never been an issue of feeling insulted by egos, it's the fact that having the type of content like HNM that it creates these upper and lower classes of players, and as it always is, the upper class always looks down on the lower class people. With Abyssea, it destroys that, and you don't feel that's fair because you don't think people deserve the same stuff as you do, that you should always be better geared than anyone else. Well, guess what? That's called having a superiority complex, and it's directly tied in with having an ego.

Gredival, on 11 December 2010 - 01:31 AM, said:

1. There's a difference between adapting to new things and LIKING it. I *do in fact* do Abyssea, Trials, and all this retarded bullshit because that's where the best gear is. I speak from a comparative perspective that the game is worse now. I enjoy it far less and bemoan the fact there's no top tier content anymore.

2. For years the mediocrity cried out and now their prayers have been answered; I want Round 2 to reset that. If enough bitching got us into this, maybe enough will get us out. Don't care if it takes another 8 years.

3. It's in fact not about my "ego" or "epeen"; see above. If you're threatened, it's because of yourself not because of me. To me it's about the fact that hey some people fucking suck ass and they shouldn't be rewarded.

4. Even if gaming is a hobby...

A) It's about fun for me too -- I find the hobby significantly less fun now (both FF and other games in general) because of the industry's pandering to bads and casuals
I think there is reason to strive for excellence even in a hobby

1. Again, as I stated above, you bemoan the fact there's no top tier content anymore because it doesn't allow your to feed your superiority complex any further. You can't be better than anyone in respects to gear because the top gear you can obtain, anyone can. Guess it hurts to be thrown off a high horse.

2. Pretty sure that's not gonna happen. Considering the majority of the game has cried out for change and got it, that leaves you with the minority who is displeased with it. And SE won't listen to the minority, since it's not in good business to change anything for their sake.

3. It is, in fact, about your ego; see above. I don't feel threatened by you in any way. I agree that the people who suck ass (and I'm meaning this in the most extreme way possible, not just anyone who's average or less) shouldn't get good gear, or at least not gear that's better than someone who's put in more effort than they have, but that doesn't mean everyone outside of your shell. Most people tend to think this way. They feel that anyone whom they don't know personally outside of their circle is unworthy of anything worth having, and can easily be looked down upon or ignored because they don't care about them. Ever join a pick up group for something like nyzul and feel a little resentment towards someone who won lot on an 80 body over you? I'm sure you have. I have; it's just part of being human. If you say you don't, you're just lying to yourself. People, in their most animalistic forms, will always be in some way selfish, and this has brought about many problems dealing with egos and superiority complexes and the like; it's all about "me" and not about "everyone else." You feel there should be top tier gear that not everyone is entitled to because you are part of a group that is able to accomplish such things, and by doing so, feel you've earned your place in society as an alpha player. And when an Alpha players domain is threatened, they lash out. That's all your complaints are about. If you say otherwise, you are just lying to yourself because deep down, it's just selfishness that drives you - and anyone here can vouch for that, being that you're pretty much the only one against the new paradigm.

4-A. Might be time to find a new hobby then.

4-B. I agree. People should strive for the best when they can, but some people don't feel this is necessary. Some people are comfortable with what you call mediocrity. Some people are fine living in small houses, with menial jobs, and a low cost car. Not everyone feels the need to feed into the idea that you have to be the best at everything you do. Just because somebody doesn't share the same ideals and opinions as you doesn't make them any less of a person; to each their own.

Gredival, on 11 December 2010 - 01:31 AM, said:

What the fuck? Do you even fucking read? I've said at least a dozen times that most people like this (because it compensates for their mediocrity) and therefore it generates more profits.

You're right, your argument was over it's "artistic vision." Your opinion of good differs from everyone elses. You like the challenge that camping Fafnir brings, you think it's more rewarding to wasted hours, days, even years on end for a piece of gear off a dragon, but again, not everyone shares that opinion. I'm sorry Abyssea didn't turn out the way you liked it, I am. Because it would've been nice to see these changes please everyone. But like Vari said, things are changing in the game, it's heading off in a new direction, and these are just growing pains. If you want a challenge, see if your shell can muster up what it takes to fight Shinryu.. It honestly seems like it's going to be harder than anything that's fought in abyssea at the moment, possibly even reaching levels of AV and PW. The rewards will be both satisfying, and give you the sense of accomplishment you want, and to top it off, most of the gear that drops off of it is a lot better than most anything that you will find in the regular zones (assuming, of course, the gear in question is all the Twilight gear that's been showing up with the update.) It may not be something you can camp every day, but hopefully it'll be something to sate your appetite for achievements.

Gredival, on 11 December 2010 - 01:31 AM, said:

I think the real life card is lame but suffice to say if I wanted to lord over other people and stroke my sense of self worth I could do it in real life and it'd be far easier if only because cause people get riled up when you start comparing paychecks/degrees/etc. and insult them irl. Contrary to popular belief, succeeding in FF doesn't have to come at the cost or work or school or such. I am simply competitive, even in hobbies, and I philosophically like the notion of ranking/categorizing/estimating people's skill.

First, just wanna say botting kings ≠ skill.

Secondly, as for the bolded areas, I bring your attention to this:

Gredival, on 09 December 2010 - 08:17 PM, said:

Flimsy and sociopathic? I enjoy meritocracy and bemoan society's constant pandering to the lowest common denominator. I talk about it in the context of XI here because this is a XI forums, but I hate it in real life too. For example, academia panders to inadequacy with ridiculous grade inflation. Average kids don't get the average C anymore. EVERYONE is above average because no child can be dumb and they are all special snowflakes. So now it's basically everyone gets a B.

There's nothing wrong with recognizing inherent differences in ability, and I think it's truly sad that we've fallen so far that people need their hands held even in video games. It's not just XI either; you have people complaining SCII is too hard and it needs to be easier and they should remove ranked leagues so (bad) people don't get stuck in bronze.

Sounds a little like the RL card to me there... Just sayin'.

Also, I don't view this as our hands being held in a video game. I'm viewing this as having heavy burdens lifted off of us so that the game is a little less of a time sink. Most people would be overjoyed to know that they won't have to waste hours of their day stuck in the aery camping gear with bots against other bots in a luck of the draw chance to get a single drop, even if it is at the cost of everyone else having the same access to the gear. It's honestly cut down a lot of stress and tension in the game, you hardly ever have to compete for the same NMs anymore, and more people are satisfied. But again, to each their own, and you are entitled to your opinion; it just doesn't make right or wrong.

This post has been edited by Aleera: 11 December 2010 - 03:04 AM

[Gredival]

Aleera, on 11 December 2010 - 03:02 AM, said:

The thing is, you say you don't see people flaunting their gear at others who are, for a lack of a better term, "less fortunate" than yourself, but I've seen it plenty of times in my day. Not just to me, but to others around me. I can't tell you how many times I've partied and had people drop because some asshat was mocking their gear choices or telling people how they can't wait to level in their leet gear, and have WS numbers in their bazaar quotes and whatnot. It's never been an issue of feeling insulted by egos, it's the fact that having the type of content like HNM that it creates these upper and lower classes of players, and as it always is, the upper class always looks down on the lower class people. With Abyssea, it destroys that, and you don't feel that's fair because you don't think people deserve the same stuff as you do, that you should always be better geared than anyone else. Well, guess what? That's called having a superiority complex, and it's directly tied in with having an ego.

1. Again, as I stated above, you bemoan the fact there's no top tier content anymore because it doesn't allow your to feed your superiority complex any further. You can't be better than anyone in respects to gear because the top gear you can obtain, anyone can. Guess it hurts to be thrown off a high horse.

3. It is, in fact, about your ego; see above. I don't feel threatened by you in any way. I agree that the people who suck ass (and I'm meaning this in the most extreme way possible, not just anyone who's average or less) shouldn't get good gear, or at least not gear that's better than someone who's put in more effort than they have, but that doesn't mean everyone outside of your shell. Most people tend to think this way. They feel that anyone whom they don't know personally outside of their circle is unworthy of anything worth having, and can easily be looked down upon or ignored because they don't care about them. Ever join a pick up group for something like nyzul and feel a little resentment towards someone who won lot on an 80 body over you? I'm sure you have. I have; it's just part of being human. If you say you don't, you're just lying to yourself. People, in their most animalistic forms, will always be in some way selfish, and this has brought about many problems dealing with egos and superiority complexes and the like; it's all about "me" and not about "everyone else." You feel there should be top tier gear that not everyone is entitled to because you are part of a group that is able to accomplish such things, and by doing so, feel you've earned your place in society as an alpha player. And when an Alpha players domain is threatened, they lash out. That's all your complaints are about. If you say otherwise, you are just lying to yourself because deep down, it's just selfishness that drives you - and anyone here can vouch for that, being that you're pretty much the only one against the new paradigm.

First, my point was that these ego's only have power if you grant it to them. I'm not conceding to these superiority complex arguments, but what is the best way to make someone with a superiority complex frustrated? Accept their accomplishments for what they are, and not give a shit. By giving a shit, you play into their hands by affirming you care about whatever their accomplishment is and that you feel like you need to prove you are not inferior. You grant the division between players validity by resenting it; the fact that you care enough to want people to have some "comeuppance" indicates you are bothered by elitism, you affirm the very thing they aim to prove: they have something, you don't have it, you don't want it, and you can't get it.

Secondly, you read additional personal motive into what I say. It's not that I think people don't deserve the same stuff as I do, or that I want better gear than other people. It's that I think the division between have and have-not is important to have. Regardless of whether I am on the have-not or have side. You are reading selfish ego fulfillment as my motive; my motive is simply not wanting bads to get ahead. If I'm excluded because I'm not good enough, then que sera sera.

I can't "prove" my motives to you, but maybe I can tell you a story that might convince you.

When I wasn't part of your "Alpha" group, I didn't bitch whine and moan for SE to nerf the game and make it more accessible for my Linkshell. I wasn't motivated to get what I wanted by any means. I wanted to earn my drops. Ask those people in that DRK thread that were in my shell. I could have bought a Hecatomb Cap from another shell and saved myself hours and days of camping Fafnir alone to keep track of the ToD. Why didn't I? Because the cap would mean nothing if it was gotten through gil. I needed to be "given" the cap; it needed to signify that a group capable of killing Fafnir felt I was worthy enough to have the drop.

I left a shell I built ground up from Genbu all the way to KV/Bahamut v. II to chase Fafnir drops. When that didn't work I left servers. Twice. As a player who sold a Speed Belt, I had MORE than enough money to buy what I wanted (Hecatomb Cap and Subligar) from shells that sell Abjs, like Excellence. Long before I got those items, I definitely shed more sweat, tears, and blood than a lot of other people who got them free lot in their LS. I could have justified taking them in a sale through that effort. But I went and earned it in a shell because to me it would have been meaningless otherwise.

If I never left, if I was still 3/5 Hecatomb... and an update came along and made Hecatomb Cap and Subligar obsolete? I wouldn't support it. To me it's not about "getting mine" or "protecting my status" it's about striving for a goal.

Failing means I wasn't meant for it. I'd rather there be a mediocre and I be a part of it, then for there to be no distinctions at all.

I was one of the only people that consistently camped Fafnir -- every timeframe -- even after I got my shit. And it annoyed my leader to no end that I was one of maybe the eight people who was *always there* but wouldn't bot. Why? Because I enjoyed the competition, my LS against the rest. You want that Ridill? I don't, but I'm going to try my damnest to make sure you don't get it.

Quote

2. Pretty sure that's not gonna happen. Considering the majority of the game has cried out for change and got it, that leaves you with the minority who is displeased with it. And SE won't listen to the minority, since it's not in good business to change anything for their sake.

SE has done a lot of shit bad for business before. Salvage bans? Constantly patching AV? Never removing/changing Kings despite all the bitching at fanfest. Mainly under Tanaka. Which is why I want him back.

The change goes against the trend of the status quo. Now of course I understand the chances are slim, but it's not like Abyssea or the 2H patch were expected.

Quote

4-B. I agree. People should strive for the best when they can, but some people don't feel this is necessary. Some people are comfortable with what you call mediocrity. Some people are fine living in small houses, with menial jobs, and a low cost car. Not everyone feels the need to feed into the idea that you have to be the best at everything you do. Just because somebody doesn't share the same ideals and opinions as you doesn't make them any less of a person; to each their own.

Good for them if they are fine with it. I have never once said that everyone has to strive for the best. You will notice my statements are conditional. "IF you want King gear, THEN do kings."

But the fact is these changes came about because some people couldn't accept mediocre and bitched about it. They wanted the reward, couldn't handle the task, and lashed out. Everyone was more than permissive of anti-Kings bitching and anti-SE bitching over the years because they agreed with it. Now the bitching goes the other way, people disapprove. It's not about bitching, it's that people don't want someone calling their opinions, a system that rewards them, into question.

Quote

First, just wanna say botting kings ≠ skill.

Read the BG thread if you want to get into this argument. It was pretty much the argument "Kings sucked because it rewarded cheating." I don't like botting at all because I think it interferes with the purity of the competition and it removes dedication from the equation (don't need to get up to camp; leave your toon overnight to claim and your shell can boot you)

But there are numerous reasons world spawns are still best in spite of this, numerous things SE could AND SHOULD HAVE done to fix botting/

Quote

Sounds a little like the RL card to me there... Just sayin'.

RL card as in, I think it's stupid to bring in my RL accomplishments and status and whatnot into the argument. Like "Well I go to Harvard so obviously I'm smarter than you, that settles this argument" or "Talk about accomplishment when you make 6-figures loser"

Quote

Also, I don't view this as our hands being held in a video game. I'm viewing this as having heavy burdens lifted off of us so that the game is a little less of a time sink. Most people would be overjoyed to know that they won't have to waste hours of their day stuck in the aery camping gear with bots against other bots in a luck of the draw chance to get a single drop, even if it is at the cost of everyone else having the same access to the gear. It's honestly cut down a lot of stress and tension in the game, you hardly ever have to compete for the same NMs anymore, and more people are satisfied. But again, to each their own, and you are entitled to your opinion; it just doesn't make right or wrong.

Except now they will continue to waste hours and hours when gear constantly gets replaced, because that's how "accessible" content works. What you lose in rarity, you make up for by hawking something new to keep ppl playing. That was my whole point with the treadmill example.

And as I have argued before, I don't think succeeding in FF took that much sacrifice... if you couldn't get something it's most likely because 1) you don't deserve to have it or 2) you weren't willing to deal with the competition to get it even though you could have easily gotten it if you just shut up and camped

People are more than willing to question/challenge my opinions and say I'm wrong... then the fallibility of opinions must extend to all opinions. People shouldn't express opinions they're are prepared to make an intellectual case for. That's the reason our political system sucks, people who don't know anything still getting the right to vote.

Oh and it's worth mentioning that it's scientifically proven that we derive more satisfaction from accomplishments when they are harder.

This post has been edited by Gredival: 11 December 2010 - 04:51 AM

[-Kaine-]

That's one... wall of text..

[phunk]

-Kaine-, on 11 December 2010 - 06:05 AM, said:

That's one... wall of text..

Serious business.

[Levian]

It was an intriguing read. I tend to agree with Gredival, despite the fact that I fell on the side of have-not in FFXI. I genuinely enjoyed the game more during the RoZ/CoP era, even TOAU than I did during early WotG when I checked out for good.

That being said though...I don't think it would be a wise decision to put Tanaka at the head of any MMO after seeing how FFXIV faired. He did good with FFXI to a degree. I enjoyed it more at the very least. There are things that are OK to be headstrong about, but you need the wisdom to see what those are, and the flexibility to allow that which needs to change to do so. IMO, the man has neither. He's a straight up my way or the high way type of individual and that doesn't bode well when your entire playerbase is telling you, "this sucks."

I'm glad they replaced a lot of the staff from the top down. Perhaps in 6 months or so FFXIV will be playable. But I'm not holding my breath. They're tossing new people into an unfamiliar project and the new HNIC is an unknown quantity. I want to say it can't get any worse, but I've said that before and been oh so very wrong. I'll say that it's a 50/50 shot that they'll be able to turn the game around.

[Aleera]

Gredival, on 11 December 2010 - 04:31 AM, said:

First, my point was that these ego's only have power if you grant it to them. I'm not conceding to these superiority complex arguments, but what is the best way to make someone with a superiority complex frustrated? Accept their accomplishments for what they are, and not give a shit. By giving a shit, you play into their hands by affirming you care about whatever their accomplishment is and that you feel like you need to prove you are not inferior. You grant the division between players validity by resenting it; the fact that you care enough to want people to have some "comeuppance" indicates you are bothered by elitism, you affirm the very thing they aim to prove: they have something, you don't have it, you don't want it, and you can't get it.

Again, it hasn't really been my problem, and I've never really played into anyone's hands over things like that. I'll admit, people who do feed into this creates this division, but it wouldn't have been started if people never felt the need to flaunt the gear in the first place. It's gonna happen regardless, it's just nature to.

Gredival, on 11 December 2010 - 04:31 AM, said:

Secondly, you read additional personal motive into what I say. It's not that I think people don't deserve the same stuff as I do, or that I want better gear than other people. It's that I think the division between have and have-not is important to have. Regardless of whether I am on the have-not or have side. You are reading selfish ego fulfillment as my motive; my motive is simply not wanting bads to get ahead. If I'm excluded because I'm not good enough, then que sera sera.

I can't "prove" my motives to you, but maybe I can tell you a story that might convince you.

When I wasn't part of your "Alpha" group, I didn't bitch whine and moan for SE to nerf the game and make it more accessible for my Linkshell. I wasn't motivated to get what I wanted by any means. I wanted to earn my drops. Ask those people in that DRK thread that were in my shell. I could have bought a Hecatomb Cap from another shell and saved myself hours and days of camping Fafnir alone to keep track of the ToD. Why didn't I? Because the cap would mean nothing if it was gotten through gil. I needed to be "given" the cap; it needed to signify that a group capable of killing Fafnir felt I was worthy enough to have the drop.

I left a shell I built ground up from Genbu all the way to KV/Bahamut v. II to chase Fafnir drops. When that didn't work I left servers. Twice. As a player who sold a Speed Belt, I had MORE than enough money to buy what I wanted (Hecatomb Cap and Subligar) from shells that sell Abjs, like Excellence. Long before I got those items, I definitely shed more sweat, tears, and blood than a lot of other people who got them free lot in their LS. I could have justified taking them in a sale through that effort. But I went and earned it in a shell because to me it would have been meaningless otherwise.

If I never left, if I was still 3/5 Hecatomb... and an update came along and made Hecatomb Cap and Subligar obsolete? I wouldn't support it. To me it's not about "getting mine" or "protecting my status" it's about striving for a goal.

While it's a nice story, and I got a little bit of your background and where you're coming from, when someone who doesn't know all that about you reads your posts about Abyssea, it comes off as I described; bitter old man whining. Not to say you don't deserve your own opinion on the matter, and in some way I feel similar feelings towards gear being outdated (as I just got my ares body not long ago, and SE isn't showing signs of doing trials for them like they said they would), I too suffer. But I've never been one to see changes like this as a bad thing, per se, I feel everything happens for a reason, and I just go with the flow. But not everyone can do that. I have a much more easy going personality than others that it doesn't bother me so much, others, like yourself, become frustrated with the idea because now Abyssea presents no challenge to gear that took lots of effort to achieve.

Gredival, on 11 December 2010 - 04:31 AM, said:

Failing means I wasn't meant for it. I'd rather there be a mediocre and I be a part of it, then for there to be no distinctions at all.

I've never seen "failing" to obtain anything as meaning I wasn't meant for it necessarily. I may have joked about it in the past, but I never gave up on any of it. It took me 2 years to get homam legs because of crap drop rates, waiting in line in several shells, etc. When I finally did get them, I felt I had really earned them. While I do like that feeling of satisfaction I got, I hated that I felt like I wasted 2 years on a single piece of gear. As late as it is in the game now, I would still like that feeling of satisfaction, but I've already sank enough years into this game that I, nor anyone else, feels the need to be throwing countless hours away for those kinds of achievements anymore. We had a good 8 year run of that sort of satisfaction, now we're in a new era where it's slightly more instantly gratifying to get gear. While admittedly not all the gear is as easy to get (seal drop rates for just the +1's are horrid for certain jobs), the +2 mats are a little more of a challenge to obtain. It's not anywhere on fafnir level, but I would still feel pretty good about acquiring anything +2 at this point.

Gredival, on 11 December 2010 - 04:31 AM, said:

I was one of the only people that consistently camped Fafnir -- every timeframe -- even after I got my shit. And it annoyed my leader to no end that I was one of maybe the eight people who was *always there* but wouldn't bot. Why? Because I enjoyed the competition, my LS against the rest. You want that Ridill? I don't, but I'm going to try my damnest to make sure you don't get it.

If it's true you used to do HNM and refused to bot to get what you want, and have still succeeded in doing so, I commend you. Not a lot of people are willing to do that, considering how many people bot kings these days. I would do the same had I ever joined an HNM shell, but they were never my style. I never liked the crowds that followed or the drama from botting.

Gredival, on 11 December 2010 - 04:31 AM, said:

SE has done a lot of shit bad for business before. Salvage bans? Constantly patching AV? Never removing/changing Kings despite all the bitching at fanfest. Mainly under Tanaka. Which is why I want him back.

I think the Salvage bans were done rightfully so in a sense that people were exploiting and cheating (much like they would have botting kings and getting away with it) then getting the ban hammer. But on the other hand, it was a bit excessive to ban so many people involved. I think maybe a fairer thing to do would be to have put out a warning that SE was aware of the glitch first and to issue warnings personally to each individual they've seen involved before having to lay the smack down on everyone, but sometimes life isn't that fair. It shouldn't have been exploited in the first place, so swift justice came in to take the upper hand.

AV's constant patching I don't think was right, though. It shouldn't take 30+ hours to kill one mob, so people finding ways to kill it on their own was perfectly acceptable. But it seems SE wanted to preserve AV to be some kind of untouchable mob, so they constantly patched it each time we found a new way to kill him, which I think is a bit unfair. It felt kind of like a kid on the playground constantly making up new rules to a game because he's losing it.

Gredival, on 11 December 2010 - 04:31 AM, said:

The change goes against the trend of the status quo. Now of course I understand the chances are slim, but it's not like Abyssea or the 2H patch were expected.

It happens. Maybe eventually you'll come to like Abyssea after a while, I realize it's hard for some people to like new changes, but only time will tell. Off example; Wendy's just changed their fries. I thought it was an option to their regular fries, but all their fries are like that now. I tried them for the first time yesterday, and while I don't quite like them as much as their old fries, I'll probably get used to it and move on. While being a terrible example, I know, it's the only recent one I could think of. But the same concept goes; Wendy's status quo was changed, and people either like it, learn to live with it, or they go elsewhere for their food. Unfortunately you just can't please anyone with big changes like this, so it's bound to have this effect.

Gredival, on 11 December 2010 - 04:31 AM, said:

But the fact is these changes came about because some people couldn't accept mediocre and bitched about it. They wanted the reward, couldn't handle the task, and lashed out. Everyone was more than permissive of anti-Kings bitching and anti-SE bitching over the years because they agreed with it. Now the bitching goes the other way, people disapprove. It's not about bitching, it's that people don't want someone calling their opinions, a system that rewards them, into question.

No changes come about unless enough people voice their opinion over it. It was obviously a huge enough issue that they had to revamp the entire games paradigm in order to compensate for that. It was a little unbalanced, to be honest. You have people that play for years and never get anything accomplished due to bad shells, low play time, other players being unfair and cheating (whether it's botting, ninja lotting, etc.), or in most case scenario's it's because the game has terrible drop rates on most things. Dynamis is a perfect example of this. They've now upped the drop rates twice on gear from there because, no matter how much you spam a zone, you may never see a pair. Realizing this is to make certain gear more exclusive (i.e. Duelist's Chapeau, Assassin's Armlets, etc) but I've seen shells do Xarc for weeks on end until people get so sick of the zone and still never see either of those drop. And that's just gear that's more accessible than ground kings gear. Ground kings, though most people do want the gear, refuse to play dirty to get them. I don't blame people for giving up on the dream of wanting an adaberk because they have morals and don't want to join a shell that bots, or to bot themselves to get it. Now gear of similar quality (as far as abyssea goes) is attainable without the need to go through such drastic measures. If you look at Abyssea as starting the game over from scratch at 75, you have your current gear as your lvl. 1 RSE, pearl/teal/aurore sets become like the level 7-30 gear you pick up, and empyrean becomes like your AF (albeit all being rather useful pieces that you can get more uses out of than regular AF, SE's finally wizened up to what jobs are in need of now vs useless stats), and now you have certain gear like Empyrean weapons and Twilight as your new top dogs.


Ugh.. didn't think I'd actually type/quote this much, but needs to be split. c.c

[Aleera]

Part 2...

Gredival, on 11 December 2010 - 04:31 AM, said:

Read the BG thread if you want to get into this argument. It was pretty much the argument "Kings sucked because it rewarded cheating." I don't like botting at all because I think it interferes with the purity of the competition and it removes dedication from the equation (don't need to get up to camp; leave your toon overnight to claim and your shell can boot you)

But there are numerous reasons world spawns are still best in spite of this, numerous things SE could AND SHOULD HAVE done to fix botting.

I don't often peruse BG enough to know of this, but I do agree that kings sucked because of botting, and that SE should have taken the same measures for salvage bans as they did with ground kings. And again, kudos to you for refusing to bot along with them, but I personally couldn't do that myself. Like I said before, had I ever joined an HNM shell, I would've adopted the same personal policies towards botting and refused to myself, but that never happened.

Gredival, on 11 December 2010 - 04:31 AM, said:

RL card as in, I think it's stupid to bring in my RL accomplishments and status and whatnot into the argument. Like "Well I go to Harvard so obviously I'm smarter than you, that settles this argument" or "Talk about accomplishment when you make 6-figures loser"

Came off that way. If it wasn't intended to, that was my bad. But claiming you felt the same way in real life only led me to envision you as that type.

Gredival, on 11 December 2010 - 04:31 AM, said:

Except now they will continue to waste hours and hours when gear constantly gets replaced, because that's how "accessible" content works. What you lose in rarity, you make up for by hawking something new to keep ppl playing. That was my whole point with the treadmill example.

Only because XI is in a new state of growth. I'm actually holding off on most of my trial weapons until 99, and the only real gear I'm going after is the Empyrean/AFv3 right now because I like the stats, they're not too hard to get, and most of them look nice. If anything, it's like getting your full set of regular AF just for the hell of it, even if you don't end up using it later on. By 99, things will balance out. Job classes will be balanced, gear, everything. The game is in a new state of growth, so you have to be patient and wait until it's complete before you can judge it wholly.

Gredival, on 11 December 2010 - 04:31 AM, said:

And as I have argued before, I don't think succeeding in FF took that much sacrifice... if you couldn't get something it's most likely because 1) you don't deserve to have it or 2) you weren't willing to deal with the competition to get it even though you could have easily gotten it if you just shut up and camped

I've never felt that if a person took a long time to get a piece of gear, it's not because they never deserved it, it's because the game mechanics can be unfair at times. Not everyone feels the need to shed blood, sweat and tears for every single piece of gear they get. Not everyone gets enjoyment out of that struggle. Which leads me to your later statement:

Gredival, on 11 December 2010 - 04:31 AM, said:

Oh and it's worth mentioning that it's scientifically proven that we derive more satisfaction from accomplishments when they are harder.

While I agree this is true, the harder the sacrifice, the greater the feeling of being rewarded is, with all the gear that's needed to be gotten, everyone doesn't want to go through hoops in hell for it all, if at all. Everyone's different, and while others may view the difficulty of acquisition as a means to separate the good from the lazy, not everyone is going to feel that way.

Gredival, on 11 December 2010 - 04:31 AM, said:

People are more than willing to question/challenge my opinions and say I'm wrong... then the fallibility of opinions must extend to all opinions. People shouldn't express opinions they're are prepared to make an intellectual case for. That's the reason our political system sucks, people who don't know anything still getting the right to vote.

That's how opinions work. Everyone has them, everyone has the right to argue the validity of the of the other persons opinions; and while I don't necessarily agree that ill informed people shouldn't have a right to vote, I feel that maybe it's more important that they do get informed at least, in some way before saying their rights should be revoked. Voting is a privilege, regardless of status or knowledge, but I feel people should be informed on the issues before doing so. Voting on issues you know nothing about sways the result in misdirection, and had people known about the consequences of their actions, they might vote differently. But you can't really apply that truth to XI because everyone here can voice their opinions, and they have, and enough of our opinions (call them votes if you will) have caused the changes you see before you. And much like voting, Abyssea has been elected as our new means to an end (or if you will, our new president). While some agree it's not the wisest of choices (like yourself) not everyone is always happy with who gets voted into office. But we make the best of it, for all it's worth. I know you have friends you still play for and they're happy with the changes, if it were me, I'd just be happy my friends were happy about it, even if I wasn't 100% pleased.

[Keylime]

Gredival, all you are doing is repeating the same argument over and over again. You are not bringing anything new to the table, just rephrasing the same shit over again. If you can't bring any new retorts to the table you can either GTFO or STFU because I'm tired of reading all your butthurt QQing.

[Gredival]

Aleera, on 11 December 2010 - 12:25 PM, said:

I'll admit, people who do feed into this creates this division, but it wouldn't have been started if people never felt the need to flaunt the gear in the first place. It's gonna happen regardless, it's just nature to.

And so a system that creates something for people to be douchebags about must be thrown out, regardless of any other benefits, because of douchebags? Well in that case might as well shut down the game.

First you're not even getting rid of elitists, or even what creates them. As you said yourself, it's a natural behavior response. All you alter are the populations in play; but as long as there remain gimps, there will be people for others to make fun of. And no matter how accessible gear is, there will be people under-geared. At best, you simply shift what people bash others for not having ("You're gimp for not having an Empyrian!") or you shift elitism to purely skill based insults (someone fucks up in a pick up group the elitist will limit their screaming to how bad they are damage without reference to "because you're TP'ing in no haste and with STR rings")

The point I'm making though is that a desire to get rid of the system is evidence that these gaps exist. Which in a way is to basically admit their whole point; it's not just pure ego, it is based on something.

This argument boils down to "It's better for us to have just a basic set of gear everyone can attain so people don't feel bad for being unable to get the best gear" vs. "There should be a wide spectrum of rewards which players have the freedom to choose how high to aim and will be tested accordingly"

I see no reason for the first. It's basically analogous to a little league were everyone gets the trophy because you don't want there to be losers. If the elitism stings, it's only because they want the gear. If they want it, well obviously gear isn't just some afterthought to having fun then. IMO that means go get it, you aren't entitled to anything.

Quote

While it's a nice story, and I got a little bit of your background and where you're coming from, when someone who doesn't know all that about you reads your posts about Abyssea, it comes off as I described; bitter old man whining. Not to say you don't deserve your own opinion on the matter, and in some way I feel similar feelings towards gear being outdated (as I just got my ares body not long ago, and SE isn't showing signs of doing trials for them like they said they would), I too suffer. But I've never been one to see changes like this as a bad thing, per se, I feel everything happens for a reason, and I just go with the flow. But not everyone can do that. I have a much more easy going personality than others that it doesn't bother me so much, others, like yourself, become frustrated with the idea because now Abyssea presents no challenge to gear that took lots of effort to achieve.

You missed the point of the story. You were basically arguing that all my arguments stem from selfish desires to maintain a system in which I'm at the top. To feed my ego. My point was that I philosophically believe that this system is for the best, regardless of where or how it stacks up against me. I was for this system when it designated me as a scrub. I was for competition when it meant I spent close to two years without missing a single Fafnir window yet I would never get any gear from it.

Whether or not I'm the winner, I want there to be winners and losers. In essence, I don't want to be playing a little league game with no score even if I'm on the team that's 0-100.

Quote

I've never seen "failing" to obtain anything as meaning I wasn't meant for it necessarily. I may have joked about it in the past, but I never gave up on any of it. It took me 2 years to get homam legs because of crap drop rates, waiting in line in several shells, etc. When I finally did get them, I felt I had really earned them. While I do like that feeling of satisfaction I got, I hated that I felt like I wasted 2 years on a single piece of gear. As late as it is in the game now, I would still like that feeling of satisfaction, but I've already sank enough years into this game that I, nor anyone else, feels the need to be throwing countless hours away for those kinds of achievements anymore. We had a good 8 year run of that sort of satisfaction, now we're in a new era where it's slightly more instantly gratifying to get gear. While admittedly not all the gear is as easy to get (seal drop rates for just the +1's are horrid for certain jobs), the +2 mats are a little more of a challenge to obtain. It's not anywhere on fafnir level, but I would still feel pretty good about acquiring anything +2 at this point.

And I feel differently; I had a paragraph here explaining why I didn't care about Abyssea rewards, but that won't prove anything. It's sufficient to note we have different standards for what we feel are accomplishments. This is besides the point.

The only fruitful conversation on this topic is if we want to argue the merits have having rewards be difficult/more rare. So far it's "Some people want the gratification of easy rewards" vs. "Rewards are better when they are hard to get; if people can't get them I don't really care about that." It's basically egalitarianism vs. (harsh) meritocracy.

Unless you want it to go further I'll just leave it at "If you want gear, I think it's your prerogative to go out and get it, even if it's hard to do. I don't see why we should care about frustrations of players who can't get gear."

Quote

I think the Salvage bans were done rightfully so in a sense that people were exploiting and cheating (much like they would have botting kings and getting away with it) then getting the ban hammer. But on the other hand, it was a bit excessive to ban so many people involved. I think maybe a fairer thing to do would be to have put out a warning that SE was aware of the glitch first and to issue warnings personally to each individual they've seen involved before having to lay the smack down on everyone, but sometimes life isn't that fair. It shouldn't have been exploited in the first place, so swift justice came in to take the upper hand.

AV's constant patching I don't think was right, though. It shouldn't take 30+ hours to kill one mob, so people finding ways to kill it on their own was perfectly acceptable. But it seems SE wanted to preserve AV to be some kind of untouchable mob, so they constantly patched it each time we found a new way to kill him, which I think is a bit unfair. It felt kind of like a kid on the playground constantly making up new rules to a game because he's losing it.

I'm not saying the Salvage weren't rightful, and I'm actually in FULL support of everything SE did in that regard. My point is merely that it was, undoubtedly, bad for business. Those were thousands of dollars per month loss, a lingering bad reputation, etc. The business decision would have been extended bans and purging tainted gear. But they went straight for full force banhammer. That was a decision based off ideals of fairplay and retribution, not business.

AV's constant patching was off this ideal they had for the fight. You want these rewards? You do this the right way. No stupid pinning or crap like that. We want this mob to be the hardest thing in this game, and we want you to figure out how to beat it in the way we intended. That was a bad business decision. AV hit the general gaming news more than a few times for being unreasonably hard and SE refusing to budge. That was a decision of artistic integrity, not business.

So it's not out of SE's MO to go against business. The reason I want Tanaka back is because he clearly sees this.

Quote

It happens. Maybe eventually you'll come to like Abyssea after a while, I realize it's hard for some people to like new changes, but only time will tell. Off example; Wendy's just changed their fries. I thought it was an option to their regular fries, but all their fries are like that now. I tried them for the first time yesterday, and while I don't quite like them as much as their old fries, I'll probably get used to it and move on. While being a terrible example, I know, it's the only recent one I could think of. But the same concept goes; Wendy's status quo was changed, and people either like it, learn to live with it, or they go elsewhere for their food. Unfortunately you just can't please anyone with big changes like this, so it's bound to have this effect.

No changes come about unless enough people voice their opinion over it. It was obviously a huge enough issue that they had to revamp the entire games paradigm in order to compensate for that. It was a little unbalanced, to be honest. You have people that play for years and never get anything accomplished due to bad shells, low play time, other players being unfair and cheating (whether it's botting, ninja lotting, etc.), or in most case scenario's it's because the game has terrible drop rates on most things. Dynamis is a perfect example of this. They've now upped the drop rates twice on gear from there because, no matter how much you spam a zone, you may never see a pair. Realizing this is to make certain gear more exclusive (i.e. Duelist's Chapeau, Assassin's Armlets, etc) but I've seen shells do Xarc for weeks on end until people get so sick of the zone and still never see either of those drop. And that's just gear that's more accessible than ground kings gear. Ground kings, though most people do want the gear, refuse to play dirty to get them. I don't blame people for giving up on the dream of wanting an adaberk because they have morals and don't want to join a shell that bots, or to bot themselves to get it. Now gear of similar quality (as far as abyssea goes) is attainable without the need to go through such drastic measures. If you look at Abyssea as starting the game over from scratch at 75, you have your current gear as your lvl. 1 RSE, pearl/teal/aurore sets become like the level 7-30 gear you pick up, and empyrean becomes like your AF (albeit all being rather useful pieces that you can get more uses out of than regular AF, SE's finally wizened up to what jobs are in need of now vs useless stats), and now you have certain gear like Empyrean weapons and Twilight as your new top dogs.

Firstly, New Coke. Decisions can be taken back. Bitching is what got SE to change stuff in the first place, so logic holds bitching can get them to change it back.

Secondlly, I'm pointing out that when people here tell me to quit if I don't like the game, they're being hypocrites. It's not about the bitching. People condoned all the bitching pre-2H patch about WAR and MNK being overpowered. People condoned all the bitching about how Kings suck how HNMs are terrible. They never once told those people "Hey that's XI, go quit if you don't like it" because they agreed with it. The whole "If you don't like it, leave" retort only came around after someone started challenging the status quo they liked.
Wanting Tanaka back is also rational for someone who wants the game to return in the direction I desire.

Quote

But claiming you felt the same way in real life only led me to envision you as that type.

I was merely asserting that it's not that I take this game too seriously, at least relative to me. My philosophy on what's wrong with this game, how this game should be, what's wrong with gamers, etc. isn't something exclusive to gaming, it derives from my personal world view and philosophy about values society should have in general. That's where the little league examples come from, the academic grade inflation examples, etc. I'm just referencing the fact I consistently apply my philosophy in all aspects on my life outside of the game as well. It's not something just for this game so that I have a place to lord over others with my Adaberk.

Quote

Only because XI is in a new state of growth. I'm actually holding off on most of my trial weapons until 99, and the only real gear I'm going after is the Empyrean/AFv3 right now because I like the stats, they're not too hard to get, and most of them look nice. If anything, it's like getting your full set of regular AF just for the hell of it, even if you don't end up using it later on. By 99, things will balance out. Job classes will be balanced, gear, everything. The game is in a new state of growth, so you have to be patient and wait until it's complete before you can judge it wholly.

Arguing from a meta-viewpoint. The reference to "skinner boxes" is about experiments done manipulating animal behavior in rats with rewards. Basically you can train rats to do completely arbitrary tasks once they learn certain rewards get associated with those tasks. Old XI kept people playing because they could never finish their goals. This accords with one type of skinner box where you give the rat a REALLY difficult task for a reward. You don't even have to give it a reward each time because as long as the rat knows it can get a reward it will keep doing the task... even if only to stockpile rewards. Rarity in fact makes the rats do the task with a frenzy thinking they have to stock pile fast. So in old XI people kept plugging away endlessly at a difficult task trying to get their gear rewards. At the point they quit, that's a level of personal tolerance.

This new "casual friendly" system of gear where everything is attainable can only keep people playing by replacing those goals with new ones is a different type of skinner box. In this skinner box where once the rat learns it can get its rewards very easily, it becomes disinterested. It stops doing the tasks because it knows that it can get rewards any time it wants. So how do you get the rat to do tasks once again? Better rewards.

Based off skinner box experiments and how they've been implemented in past MMOs (again gaming companies devote millions to researching how to make games addictive like this), I'm saying that XI has a guaranteed trajectory. AF3 can't possibly be like Adaberk where it stays the best gear for 7 years. People will quit because they already have everything. SE knows this. The only thing SE can do is keep releasing new shit, upgrades, to keep people playing.

So in the end when you distance yourself from the game and look at it, it's like I said with the treadmills. You have one seemingly painful route to reward that actually ends... and another cakewalk which is basically a masked hell because it never ends

Quote

Gredival, all you are doing is repeating the same argument over and over again. You are not bringing anything new to the table, just rephrasing the same shit over again. If you can't bring any new retorts to the table you can either GTFO or STFU because I'm tired of reading all your butthurt QQing.

When the central argument in the debate is X, rebuttals to X and answers to the rebuttals, necessarily require talking about X in some way. If they didn't, the discussion would be tangential to the argument and pointless. One accepted way to answer a retort is to show it doesn't attack the very basis of the initial argument.

I've done a pretty good job replying to every argument brought forth. If you think I'm not being responsive the onus is on your to show that by bringing counter-claims or disproving a warrant which I rely on to make the argument.

This post has been edited by Gredival: 11 December 2010 - 06:13 PM

[MrReinhardt]

so when did this thread become about anal fisting each other?

[Keylime]

Since 'you bring nothing to the table' was lost on you. I got a picture that describes this thread. I figure that if a child can understand it, so can you.

Spoiler

[Temadian]

because no change is good! having 1 piece of gear be the best piece of gear for 5 years is how you make a game!

change needs to happen to keep people interested, if theres no change the game becomes stagnant

people hate on wow so hard, yet casual people get decent gear and are happy, and there IS content for the hardcore, with better gear then the toned down stuff for casuals, seems to have worked for WoW, how dare ff11 try to take some ideas!

bring back my ballista!

the end

[What?]

Gredival, on 11 December 2010 - 05:53 PM, said:

This argument boils down to "It's better for us to have just a basic set of gear everyone can attain so people don't feel bad for being unable to get the best gear" vs. "There should be a wide spectrum of rewards which players have the freedom to choose how high to aim and will be tested accordingly"

I see no reason for the first. It's basically analogous to a little league were everyone gets the trophy because you don't want there to be losers. If the elitism stings, it's only because they want the gear. If they want it, well obviously gear isn't just some afterthought to having fun then. IMO that means go get it, you aren't entitled to anything.

The only thing hard about HNMs were the ridiculous timers on them. If people could fight Fafhogg as often as they wanted a lot more people would have had Adaberks, because the fight itself wasn't hard. Having ridiculous timers on them added artificial difficulty. If Fafhogg could have been fought every week in order to keep the same pieces rare they could have made the fight itself harder so lesser skilled/geared players wouldn't beat it. Or reduce the rate of how often gear dropped. Every time I saw people mention how they would fix HNMs people were aware of this and said the timers need to go but make the fights more about the skill of the player. No one asked for HNMs to just give gear like candy and be a cake walk, people asked for them to cut the bullshit with regards to timers even if it meant harder fights with lower drop rates.

Is that scenario something you would tolerate? It keeps skilled players on top while the retards are stuck at the bottom, even more so than the old method where a bot was the deciding factor in who won what piece of gear. Everyone doesn't win.

Gredival, on 11 December 2010 - 05:53 PM, said:

Whether or not I'm the winner, I want there to be winners and losers. In essence, I don't want to be playing a little league game with no score even if I'm on the team that's 0-100.

Fantastic. My solution, and the solution a lot of people wanted, fits that perfectly. But something tells me you're going to argue sitting in a pit fiddling with your thumbs somehow involves challenge or skill since...

Gredival, on 11 December 2010 - 05:53 PM, said:

I was for competition when it meant I spent close to two years without missing a single Fafnir window yet I would never get any gear from it.

You're not serious are you? This can't be true right? So at 4am when Fafnir popped you were on top of that no problem? For 2 years? And you're proud of that?

Gredival, on 11 December 2010 - 05:53 PM, said:

The only fruitful conversation on this topic is if we want to argue the merits have having rewards be difficult/more rare. So far it's "Some people want the gratification of easy rewards" vs. "Rewards are better when they are hard to get; if people can't get them I don't really care about that."

I told you this already. They decided they wanted to shake the game up and bring players back because they thought FF14 would take too many away. They decided on a schedule for implementing level cap increases. Having gear that takes months upon months to get when each cap increase is coming out every 3 months is nonsensical. Having gear upgraded is nonsensical when the entire level cap increase isn't for the benefit of people already playing but for those who have quit. They don't want to come back to the game to finish content they're sick of. SE dictates how hard it is to gain a piece of equipment by how soon the next level cap increase is coming. Wait until the game reaches 99 before you complain that gear is too easy to get, my god. You need to get a grip if you think they can make gear takes months to complete when level cap increases are coming out sooner than people would be able to obtain one piece of gear. Likewise when it comes to upgrading gear, it would have made no sense to do when their goal was "get people back" not "please the people who've reached the top already". It's already done, it's in the past, it's not changing, upgrading gear is off the table. No amount of bitching will change this, wait until the game gets to 99 and see how hard things are to get then. I've already explained to you it's in their best interest to make gear harder to get at 99 because it's more cost efficient at that point, but has anything anyone has said even begun to get inside your head?

Gredival, on 11 December 2010 - 05:53 PM, said:

That was a decision based off ideals of fairplay and retribution, not business.

Games that are notorious for cheating (Phantasy Star Online with it's dupes) create bad word of mouth and can affect sales. Plenty of good business sense to be had when it comes to banning cheaters. SE aren't the only people doing this, Xbox Live bans a ton of people for cheating and that's the main source of revenune for the Xbox division.

Gredival, on 11 December 2010 - 05:53 PM, said:

Secondlly, I'm pointing out that when people here tell me to quit if I don't like the game, they're being hypocrites.

Is that so, people in this very thread? Are you saying I didn't quit FFXI when I realised what I wanted it to change into wasn't going to happen? Because I have many ways to show you I'm currently not, and have not been playing FFXI for a while. So, I must be a hypocrite because some of the things you listed like HNMs and class imbalances I didn't like? That is true, I didn't like those things. But I never let those things affect my enjoyment of the game in a substantial manner, they were extremely mild annoyances. People are telling you to quit if you don't like it because you're obviously more aggrevated by the current state of the game than anyone else ever was when it came to HNMs and class imbalances. You're posting all over this forum about how crap FFXI is now, why wouldn't people tell you to quit? Especially when no one, not even you I'm guessing, believes the game will take a 180 and go back to the way it was before when so many more people are enjoying it now. People bitched about things but it was never as much as this. You're bitching more, so more people tell you you should find another game. Even if someone back then bitched about HNMs as often as you do about FFXI now, people would tell that person to shut up and quit because no one thought it would actually change, no matter how many others wanted the same thing. If you're that annoyed by it, quit. People didn't quit over HNMs and class imbalances because it didn't bother them as much, that doesn't make them hypocrites.

Gredival, on 11 December 2010 - 05:53 PM, said:

AF3 can't possibly be like Adaberk where it stays the best gear for 7 years. People will quit because they already have everything. SE knows this. The only thing SE can do is keep releasing new shit, upgrades, to keep people playing.

Substantiate this claim. First of all, XI throughout it's life always released new stuff to keep people playing. But you're saying they've gotten into this groove with the level cap increases that it's somehow impossible for them to go back, why is this? Because from a financial standpoint constantly creating new gear models, monsters and areas isn't going to be sustainable forever, not with the number of players XI has. This is the part in XI's life where it's trying to get people back. We're not passed it yet. When they stop trying to get people back and look towards sustaining what they have, it makes more sense financially to have gear take longer to obtain. If they can create a battlefield where items drop in 6 months instead of 2 weeks, that means they can create less battlefields. XI didn't make things take long to obtain because they were so interested in people having a sense of accomplishment, it's because they were cheap fucks. Creating items that give +1 DMG +3% Triple attack off a battlefield that could take months if not years to obtain when the next best thing is off the AH for 200k didn't happen by accident. Giving people stupid tiny increases for months of work meant they didn't have to create a new Kirin. Or a new anything. It was cheaper for them to do. Making the gear take longer to obtain gave them more room to barely increase stats over the next piece until eventually they would need to create stronger monsters, where older monsters were suddenly too easy. XI didn't do this until the level cap increase. SE stopped being cheap fucks when it came to the level cap increase, and they're not going to decide to continually waste more money than they need to when we're at 99 if it's giving them no more benefit.

[draugo]

You know, repeating this argument about how you either don't deserve the gear or you are too lazy to go out and get there gear is fucking stupid, how about oh you weren't on for most of 2008 because you were deployed? You don't deserve the gear... Oh you Have a full time job and a family so you can't just camp an NM whenever it possibly will pop? you don't deserve the gear. Instanced > World spawn, because the instanced scenario plays out as skill v. no life. You can plan to work on things whenever and don't have to feel like you are a piece of shit in real life because you want to do other things besides nerd out.

FYI sport the term hardcore gamer has nothing to do with real competition.... Hardcore gamer back in the day when it mattered was about playing on your time, not some global timer that kept you up late at night or made you wake up early in order to use the content that you paid for.

I pay my fucking subscription same as you, I paid for the fucking game at a premium when it first came out so you can keep that bullshit about what you do and do not deserve to yourself. Arrogant elitist fuck.

Shit really is getting old, and for some reason I am reading it, I deserve my LOLClub from this thread because I camped it.

[Aleera]

draugo, on 11 December 2010 - 10:24 PM, said:

not some global timer that kept you up late at night or made you wake up early in order to use the content that you paid for.

If I wanted to pay for something to wake me up at 5:30 in the morning for any sort of enjoyment I woulda bought a mail order bride with a case of nymphomania. BA DUM CHEE.

[Corrderio]

Aleera, on 11 December 2010 - 11:40 PM, said:

If I wanted to pay for something to wake me up at 5:30 in the morning for any sort of enjoyment I woulda bought a mail order bride with a case of nymphomania. BA DUM CHEE.

/highfive

[Temadian]

those last few posts, especially about instances > world spawns, are so spot on, its reasons why so many people play wow, even if it is easy to play.

also, its always been my belief, who cares about your gear, if you dont know how to use it, such a shame ballista is no longer popular!