[Wickett]

I don't usually start my own threads, but I wanted to get some feedback on this idea. Before I go into details, please don't respond to this with a nasty comment about SMNs needing to stop whining or that the job is fine as is... most people would agree that it clearly isn't.
All right... it recently occured to me that my biggest disappointment with my job is the lack of versatility. SMNs are great PT buffers and backup healers, but they are inadequate as damage dealers and they run into serious problems past lvl 50. The hope is that Squenix will "fix" the SMN class when they rebalance all of the classes with the advent of PvP, and here is one possible fix.
Give SMNs two active job abilities that allow to switch between being damage dealers and PT buffers, but never both at the same time.
They could both be selectable under job abilities, just like "Divine Seal," and they could have a cool down of anywhere between 2-5 minutes.
First active abiliity, maybe called "Astral Assault," puts all of the avatars in damage dealing mode. In this mode, they lose the abiliity to cast PT buffs, but their attacks become enchanted, and both melee and BP damage abilities become much more powerful. Also, the mp slip for avatars is much less in this mode (maybe half of what it currently is?) In this mode, a SMN could fill the role of a BLM if that's what the party needed, dealing approximately the same amount of damage/ mp spent as a BLM.
Second active ability, maybe called "Astral Protector," puts all avatars into support mode. In this mode, avatars are summoned, cast a single PT buff, and then disappear. This mode would play much like the current SMN job; it would also be much more mp conservative than Astral Assault, leaving the SMN plenty of time and mp for backup healing.
In this two mode system, a SMN would have the versatility to play different roles in a PT depending on the unique PT dynamic. Such a SMN would not be overpowered, because in one mode he is roughly equivalent in offensive power to a BLM, and in another mode he is much like the current SMN job, but the SMN will have to choose which role he needs to play. The cool down on activating either ability would prevent SMNs from switching back and forth constantly (that would definitely be overpowered.)
I'd imagine that some will complain this idea would still make SMNs too powerful, sort of like a melee class than can switch between being a heavy tank like a PLD or a heavy damage dealer like a DRK. Remember that both modes would be mp intensive, probably more than any other job. Also keep in mind that the SMN class is nerfed without avatars (Carby still wouldnt do much damage even in Astral Assault, and his PT buffs aren't very good anyway.) SMN takes more hard work to unlock and build properly (defeating all the avatars) than any other job by far... offering SMNs this added versatility would seem to fix a lot of problems and offer a suitable "reward" for all the hardwork SMNs put in play the class correctly. I know I would certainly have a lot more fun with my job if I had this option.

>>> I'm open to comments/ criticism, but please try to keep your posts fair, well-reasoned, and constructive. If you don't have any practical knowledge of the job (i.e. have PTed with many SMNs w/ avatars or are a SMN yourself) then please don't pretend to know what you're talking about.

[Gryffes]

sounds alright,

I think the real weakness with the avatars is that squenix designed the game so players would be killing toughs most of the time, the reduced damage and hitrate on IT's is what makes summoners so sub standard with regards to their classic FF role.

I'd rather we saw summons doing much better damage vs IT and picking the right elemental type for the monsters ie their hits are all elemental so fire vs a monster weak to ice would make ifrit a good choice.

Also lowering the recast on group abilities could make the summoner truly powerful...imagine a 15s recast on blood pact, blink+stoneskin etc

I think 15s would overpower summoners but I think most people who play a summoner would agree its too high at 1 minute.

Maybe 20-30s would be better without making summoner owerpowered.

[Kuroi]

i dunno but if the SMN can do both a BLM and WHM job....... wouldn't the whm's and BLM's go out of jobs? hehehe in addition when a SMN subs another subjob they can do that sub job's magic.... that mean its like having 2 chars and u still get the full 100% exp? sounds kinda unfair isn't it? because if the Summons were to be as strong as blm and u sub whm hehe but then again as u said it will be MP draining but still but i really agree with the 2 mode thingy like assualt and protector mode.... sounds very interesting and if y not have protector mode be like a 10 min recycle time like divine seal, anti dragon, anti demon thingy so people can't just over use it and limit it so that a SMN can't summon multiple summons and cast all typs of buffs and enhancements..... like summone one, cast buffs and what not, dismiss, then summon another and keep buffing.... hehe that would be too much ^^ but yea i really agree SMN needs some type of fix

[Atalya]

I like...no...love this idea. You see few summoners because people say it's just like being a whm over again. The abilities are also good, like Beserk and Defender for war. Only things that sucks is that no one will pt with you if you don't have any avatars. And you need lvl 60+ to beat them. T.T

[Kuroi]

and there we have it another one conviced and devote follower hahaha i must say Wickett is pretty damn smart ^^ y couldn't Squienix come up with that idea and kinda moderate it so its PT friendly?

[Gryffes]

go read ffxionline forums Atalya, some lvl 30s boasting how they got their friends to do it for them.

[Geege]

Hmmm so one ability just puts the summons into major damage, MP less drainy mode? How long would that last for? And the Protector ability would be good but shouldn't be automatic in making the summon cast, then disappear. I say, make the abilities where they stay on for 5 minutes. Each one also has a recast time of 3 minutes. Then BloodPact stays at one minutes but you can only cast according to which ability you activated. But then, if you don't activate either no BloodPacts?

[Meiyu]

Gryffes :
go read ffxionline forums Atalya, some lvl 30s boasting how they got their friends to do it for them.

Yeah, and you can see Gryffes throwing out some harsh pretty namecalling on us as well. Honestly, why don't you give it up already? Mods warned you guys there enough.

You're a WHM, go heal, or something.

[Phlow]

I don't see how, though, this would make a summoner more of a PT class. If your intent is to pull it away from PT situations, by all means, join the Beastmasters but doing more damage will only let summons take higher mobs.

Yes, in one mode you have a BLM-like situation. But you also have a DRK with you - your summon that is astral assaulted. And yes, in the other mode, you can serve as a WHM, but again, you have an RDM buffing you.

What if (chuckin an idea :boing I am already aware that it might suck) the damage done by an avatar was based on the members in your party? And their levels, perhaps?

Say... Take a 6 person PT roughly in their mid-30's. Divide lvl's by 10? and you get 3.5 per person.

3.5 x 5 (number of people in your pt, excluding you) = 17.5 lvls

Add that to your own, and you get your avatar's assumed level? *shrugs* That might be a bit much, but it was just a mock-trial.

While summons, in the past FF games, have been great sources of damage (Bahamut, Crusader, Three Sisters), they have ALSO been great debuffs (Carbuncle, Palidor, Diablos.) Now, I've heard Square hasn't stopped with the level cap yet - It's planned to go somewhere near 180. Why give ultimate damage to a player at lvl 60-70 when there are another 110 levels to go?



PS: I have no summoner. I haven't even completed the quest. I helped a friend with it, but that's about it. I just posted cause this was on the top of the forums

[Tristram]

Personally I'm all for Summoners getting stronger. If they're so upset with the way they are now let them be. But I don't want to see them get too strong. I like the way they are right now, just need a smidge more damage. Wickett has a great idea, except a PT of summoners would be able to pretty much beat anything (Much like a BST PT can slaughter BCNM 40 with no problems.), since they can just stand far away and let their summons do everything while they sit and have tea or whatever it is you summoners do.

So before you yell at me, I'm not against making summoners stronger. I am against pulling idea's from the other FF's because it doesn't work, most turn the summoners into an insta-cast spell, minus the others which were horrible (10/8 whatever where they had health and stuff) I think in the long run if they end up making Summons stronger they're going to do to them what they did to Beastmasters. XP loss for when you have a summon out in battle. Thats just what I'm seeing right now.

[Nohmaan]

oh i must say, Calvin and Hobbes rules.

I've got a book autographed by Bill Watterson

[Wickett]

Some responses... Kuroi, BLMs and WHM would certainly not be out of a job. In Astral Assault mode, SMNs would be similar to a BLM in damage output/ mp spent. BLM is a starting class... plenty of people still love ancient magic and will stick with BLM. SMN would not be any more effective as a damage dealer; in fact, since avatars are incapable of magic bursting with their elemental spells, BLMs will remain the primary magic damage dealers. As for WHMs, they have never been in danger of being put out of a job by SMNs. You've gotta realize that SMNs can only heal as well as their sub allows them to... SMN/WHMs get Cure II at lvl 22, Curaga at lvl 32, and Cure III at lvl 42. That's the full extent of a SMNs healing capabilities. Especially at higher lvls, WHMs are a necessity for powerful protectra/ shellra, Cure IV, Raise II, etc.
Geege, in theory, a SMN would always be in either Astral Assault or Astrak Protector... there would be a cool down on the ability to switch between modes (maybe every 5-10 minutes?) That way, when you enter a PT, you can adapt yourself to whatever the PT needs, but you can't switch back on a whim and be both a PT buffer and a damage dealer.
Phlow, I'm not quite sure what your criticism is, but my idea is make SMNs more versatile in PTs, not to take them away from PT situations. SMNs (Taru SMN especially) are far and away the physically weakest class in the game, so soloing is never easy at any lvl. Also, I dunno where you heard that the final lvl cap is going to be 180, but if that's true (which i sincerely doubt it is,) that won't happen until 5 years from now or later.
Tristram, I can see your point, but I hope they never incorporate an xp penalty into the SMN class. SMNs have a hard enough time finding PT after lvl 50 without having to deal with an xp penalty.

Side note>>> SMN AF comes with Enmity - for avatars... why would Square include that if avatars weren't intended to be left out doing melee damage? Thanks for your posts btw

[Jarigue]

i dont know if uve seen a high level summone, but i have a 49 SMN friend and he`s pretty strong, i always like to see a SMN with all summons(beside Fenrir), in a PT, all the boost makes hunting better, any thats just my opinion. In other notes, i havent played summoner, so maybe you guys are right.