[azagarth1]

ya sadly mnks just outdated.... I consider it my main too still. I was one of first NA's on my server to have a rocking mnk. BB+byakkos+shura full set+faith, back when it was really an accomplishment. Think i may have been one of first 5 NA mnks to have a faith torque that I know of. When i quit and restarted on my galka i lved pup first just for the lolz, and it was my last job i was trying out on my taru so figured why not. But it always left a void in me. So After awhile I decided to take mnk back up bc i missed it so much, took 3 weeks haha i just couldent put it down.

With that said though mnk is near useless outside of salvage now. Heck even in salvage you don't really need them as much as people make it out that you do. A well geared sam or war can tank just fine everything a mnk can (use to run with an apoc drk that made bosses silly). With getting weapons off the start mnk isnt a must like it use to be before that update. It just stands that mnk falls behind 2h now, at birds anything with a polearm will rape you. At mmjsp they can do very well though, but still outclassed by equally skills/geared 2h people.

I find myself on sam now all the time for reasons above. its easier to gear to point where it performs really well, and blows mnk away when it has rocking gear. My mnk still doesnt have BB on this new char which would cost 9m, so fuck that. Even if it did get a black belt it would still be just meh in comparison to my sam really. Mnk use to be amazing before 2h update, hasso, other jobs getting good defensive abilities (so did nin too). I think if SE put back a 5tp per hit floor like they use to, gave 1h the .75 acc per dex (not the attack) then it would be enough to even out most jobs.

[Austar2.0]

I don't have any 2H job past 37. Just NIN and BLU sitting at 65 because they blow dick. All my other jobs are 37 or less.

[pathwriter]

You're really buying too much into hype, Azagarth. I run Salvage with a Samurai who has both Amanomurakumo and Yoichinoyumi. He ends up tanking on lower floors for rather obvious reasons, not least of which is simply that he uses Provoke whenever possible, but given the choice between me tanking Chariots on Monk and him doing it on Samurai, we always opt for Monk while he uses Namas Arrow to chain with Asuran Fists and keep his Enmity low. Seigan+Third Eye is nice, but it doesn't begin to compare to the defensive capability of Counterstance+Utsusemi regardless of what anyone claims. At the same time, though, we resist coming to Salvage with both of us Monk (he also has Spharai x.x) because renkei is what can really tear things apart in Salvage in ways that simple DPS does not manage.

As for Monk's damage output, it's still stellar, but everyone erroneously uses Greater Colibri as their baseline. If we're talking about comparing a Hagun Samurai to a Destroyers Monk, assuming their gear is on roughly the same tier (no full Usukane vs. full AF comparisons), the difference between the two is shockingly small, especially since the Monk is going to be forced to use fucking Ninja as a sub regardless of whether the Samurai ever touches Seigan. Abusing piercing bonus damage has skewed perceptions in a truly frustrating way. If Monk truly were so far behind as people claim, though, I could go to a merit party subbing Warrior and no one would complain. When's the last time you saw that shit happen? Even LS groups with multiple relics are afraid of letting a Monk let loose like that, though fuck if I can figure out why with full-time Hasso players of every 2H variety.

I still think that one-handed weapons need a slight adjustment, but it should be in the area of Accuracy. It's nonsensical that I can throw on a staff and match my merited hand-to-hand accuracy. It's absurd that a Samurai or Warrior using a B weapon (polearm) can cap accuracy where I'm still struggling to hit 90%, by which I'm referring to Greater Colibri because I'm not wasting pizza there and, in spite of the claims that Monk damage doesn't add up, I've yet to have a piece of Crab Sushi or a Meat Mithkabob last longer than 3 minutes.

[Austar2.0]

True dat, Path.

[Yhelothur]

pathwriter, on 24 September 2009 - 02:21 PM, said:

I still think that one-handed weapons need a slight adjustment, but it should be in the area of Accuracy. It's nonsensical that I can throw on a staff and match my merited hand-to-hand accuracy. It's absurd that a Samurai or Warrior using a B weapon (polearm) can cap accuracy where I'm still struggling to hit 90%, by which I'm referring to Greater Colibri because I'm not wasting pizza there and, in spite of the claims that Monk damage doesn't add up, I've yet to have a piece of Crab Sushi or a Meat Mithkabob last longer than 3 minutes.

You do know it takes INSANE gear to cap accuracy on Greater Colibri with polearm without Crab Sushi, right? Even fully merited I'd be sitting at 77.1% in my gear (A total of +43 accuracy as well). You need full Usukane to make that feasible. I'm sure you were exaggerating somewhat, due to the tone of your post, but I'm just showing you it's not quite as bad as you make it sound.

[Austar2.0]

How the hell do you get 85+% acc on your MNK at birds without sushi? I barely pull 71% before using crab.

[Aliadim]

Yhelothur, on 24 September 2009 - 04:56 PM, said:

You do know it takes INSANE gear to cap accuracy on Greater Colibri with polearm without Crab Sushi, right? Even fully merited I'd be sitting at 77.1% in my gear (A total of +43 accuracy as well). You need full Usukane to make that feasible. I'm sure you were exaggerating somewhat, due to the tone of your post, but I'm just showing you it's not quite as bad as you make it sound.

Sounds like a the same amount of ACC on a MNK. Also without Sushi. I think his point is still valid. SAM's B- in polearm shouldn't compare to an A+ weapon. It's sad that both weapons without Sushi have comparable ACC ratings.

[Yhelothur]

That's also with Hasso, not to mention more accuracy than I wear on monk. I'm not saying his point isn't valid, I'm just saying it takes great gear to cap there without food. A monk with the same gear will be easily capped too.

[shadowdereapz]

pathwriter, on 24 September 2009 - 02:21 PM, said:

As for Monk's damage output, it's still stellar, but everyone erroneously uses Greater Colibri as their baseline. If we're talking about comparing a Hagun Samurai to a Destroyers Monk, assuming their gear is on roughly the same tier (no full Usukane vs. full AF comparisons), the difference between the two is shockingly small, especially since the Monk is going to be forced to use fucking Ninja as a sub regardless of whether the Samurai ever touches Seigan.

^ this. Birds are a horrible spot to parse, as certain jobs can target a weakness.(piercing.) If you take most jobs that don't/are not able to target the birds weakness, and the players are on the same gear/play-style tier, most of them will parse very close numbers of each other.
YES, Samurai and Warrior's as well as Dragoon will parse higher numbers on birds if they are exploiting the piercing weakness.(talking about decently geared/merited players here.)

Main reason I take polearm Samurai to birds more then monk, I still find time to play monk, if I get a Mamool Ja Staging Point party my first choice of job to come on is Monk.

[azagarth1]

path i would love to say it is hype but sadly after years of being mnk main i can humbly say its not. Just fyi.... sam with hagun is really only impressive on hnms/really high def mobs. polearm rapes lower floors in salvage which i know you know, its best in dynamis besides xcar (which screw mnk for anyhow), it rocks for mmjsp and birds if you have the support and gear, its great in ein and limbus areas too. I mean ya you can use hagun and do great but polearm is really good in a lot of areas so comparing yourself in these areas you need to do it against that, which will clearly show sam being better. I rarely use my hagun anymore because i dont fight to hard of mobs nowadays, sky gods is really it that i get to bust out hagun.

I am in now way trying to defend sam, I hate hate hate that they are so easily powerful, along with wars now. Mnk only can dd, let them be #1 or damn close is fair like it had been for years bar ridill wars who knew how to use it.

Mnk is great for smaller things, but it is just sad to see on mobs worth worrying about performance. That is where sam shine too. and war, and drk....... My good friend is full usu/bb/torex2/cuch/blackthalumn/brutal+hollow+faith torque mnk and I easily keep up on my Ah sam. We are both equally aggressive players, he outdoes me. But i have NQ gear basically nothing special. If i had ger at his lv it would be no contest. This isnt just birds this is nearly everywhere.

If i ever get my black belt back, cuchu, and some usu though... you can assure yourself I will be on mnk more, but as it stands my sam just outclasses my mnk so much that it makes me cry, because mnk is my job i love.

[pathwriter]

I get asked to come to Dynamis-Xarcabard as Monk, in spite of being relied upon heavily as a main healer on my White Mage or being asked to come on everyone's favorite job (Bard). I just finished leveling Ranger, so perhaps that'll get replaced for Xarcabard, but, nonetheless, you're still falling into holes.

Your claim about keeping up with your top-geared Monk is ignoring that you're talking about abusing piercing damage on Greater Colibri.

Samurai needs to be taken down a peg or one-handed weapon jobs of every type needs to be boosted, but let's not go crazy suggesting that Monk is a dead job. Every time you say that, it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. Every place that people use to justify full-timing a polearm on Samurai (just play Dragoon for fuck's sake, it's a strong job) is a place where Monk has zero difficulty keeping up even when shackled to a goddamned worthless sub in terms of DD potential. The only places that a standard Samurai can regularly threaten me are extremely low HP mobs where they can one-shot the fuckers thanks to Meditate while we're running around, that is, the first couple floors of some parts of Salvage (you seem to have forgotten all the blunt-weak mobs in Arrapago and Silver Sea Remnants).

Of all people, I'm pretty much the last one on the planet who would have Black Belt, yet I have it. Go get it if you really insist on whining about how awful your Monk is. I'm normally a lot nicer about this item because I know how hard it is to get (well, sort of, I got mine in an amazing series of lucky circumstances), but the QQ is really starting to drive me up a wall. Sell your Hagun if you love your Tomoe (or Engetsuto or whatever) so much and go buy a Black Belt item.

[Austar2.0]

I don't have a BB and 0/15 Usukane, don't see me saying my MNK sucks. Maybe not the best, but I sure as hell would rather be on my MNK than go level SAM like the rest of the server.

[Yhelothur]

It all comes down to what you enjoy playing. If you really enjoy Monk, play Monk. If you enjoy SAM, play SAM. The fact stands that Monk can still compete with the best, but we all know that no dual wielding job much less h2h compares on anything endgame. Until the day comes that they buff dual wielders, maybe just have fun instead of not being happy about not being #1 on the parse.

Monk is far from a dead job, and I still find myself using it more often than my SAM in Salvage and for doing low-manned missions/fights/etc. They both have their uses, and it all depends on your playstyle which will be better overall. For example, the other night I parsed Salvage. We had like 3 SAM's including me, one being /THF, one being /NIN, and myself as /DRG. There were other DD's as well, but that's not the point. I completely managed to trash them in the parse, but I also took more damage than anyone else there minus the PLD. All of you know that Monk wouldn't have taken nearly that amount of damage, even if I was /WAR.

It pretty much comes down to your playstyle. If you enjoy being able to smash everything in the game with the utility of two different weapons, go with SAM. If you don't want to entertain the thought of levelling the newest "bandwagon" job in the game, stick with monk.

Or you can just be flexible and have both at 75, and use each where it's best. Or play what you have the most fun with. This game is about having fun, after all.... Right?

[pathwriter]

How many fucking people do you drag to Salvage? Three Samurai, a Paladin, and other forms of DPS? That's absurd.

[Yhelothur]

I meant to say I parsed Limbus, sorry. Have Salvage on the brain @.@;

Methinks I should start doing drugs. It would give me an excuse for this lack of coherence I've had recently.

[Aliadim]

Gonna start Salvage soon! Finally. Maybe.

Something I hate about Salvage.

[azagarth1]

path i love how your shell lets you come on mnk to stuff, mine currently never do so maybe i need a new shell?

BB items 3m on my server.. no thanks i wont supply kuwait ls's. if i could find 1m items id buy em though and have considered selling hagun to fund it since i never seem to use it.

I know what mnk can do, hell way back before 2h update i got to melee stuff on mnk that ordinary people never would have been able to.I remember back in 05 being able to come mnk/drk to genbu and rock souleater whenever i wanted to since we where way to mage heavy back then. and /war to the rest and just melee em down good. also got bitched at for feeding tp.. man those where the days.

i agree about mnk is salvage, they are best dd generally, however if the only reason you have mnk is for salvage that to me is just sad and i see it happen to often some noob lvs mnk from a top endgame shell for salvage and sitts at kings shouting 5m for BB items since his shell no longer camps bc its near pointless nowadays. The said mnk goes on to be 5/5 usu, sandoworm shit, all the fancys and then never quests af....... has no clue what to macro in for his ws's and generally sucs. This is the sad fate of mnk it usually only comes out for salvage and other niche events.

I guess what im getting at is mnk needs enough of a buff that it can compete on things like real hnms, or be able to not eat sushi ffs (i know about pizza and id rather be eatting red curry at mmjsp or atleast a hedgehog pie.) I may just be whining like you said but seriously you cant be serious when you say mnk is on top.... i parse and parse and just dont see it. for xp sam, drg, drk, war all out dd us pretty easy and with much easier to attain gear, on hnms its not even worth discussing how useless mnk is.

if nothing this been most active i seen mnk forums in awhile ;D

[Aliadim]

azagarth1, on 26 September 2009 - 02:00 AM, said:

I guess what im getting at is mnk needs enough of a buff that it can compete on things like real hnms, or be able to not eat sushi ffs (i know about pizza and id rather be eatting red curry at mmjsp or atleast a hedgehog pie.) I may just be whining like you said but seriously you cant be serious when you say mnk is on top.... i parse and parse and just dont see it. for xp sam, drg, drk, war all out dd us pretty easy and with much easier to attain gear, on hnms its not even worth discussing how useless mnk is.

if nothing this been most active i seen mnk forums in awhile ;D

Wut?

I "parse and parse" as well and with an exception to birds I infrequently get beaten - let alone easily - by any of those. As for birds, only SAM and DRG beat me. Even then, they rarely absolutely rock me (especially when they're subbing DD jobs). I actually don't even remember a single situation where a DRK or WAR has beaten me in "XP parties". It's only HNM's do they beat me and even then, when I -am- allowed to come as MNK and with a functional sub, I fair quite well. Certainly win against the lesser equipped folks.

But I do agree with your HNM statement. For the most part. Kinda. I think you like to exaggerate. But the rest of it? Horribly huge exaggeration. Outside of HNM's, my MNK is a bringer of death.

[Yhelothur]

I think every monk should stop meriting at birds with SAM's and DRG's, so they can quit QQ'n about how we "never win" anymore.

[NikosThePLDMan]

Soon as the Zombies give a Blunt Damage Bonus, then MNKs will stop xping on birds.