[Marco]

Can anyone think of a better argument other than the "OMGWTFBBQ" TP gaining thing?

[Stanislaw]

How about mental anguish to fellow PT members? Especially so if they're not your LS mates or your friends, but random strangers.

[Marco]

That's better.

[Courtney]

Marco :
Can anyone think of a better argument other than the "OMGWTFBBQ" TP gaining thing?

How about the fact that you can't cast as effectively with mellee gear and/or a sword?

Or how about the fact that you can't keep TP if you do change to a wand or a staff to cast?

Or how about the fact that INT/MND are some of our key casting stats and mellees are consistently giving them up to poke stuff?

Or how about the fact that you're consistently giving up MP to mellee... MP that could be used to let your party do more damage (killing the mob faster) and use up less resources in doing it, giving you better chains, and more exp per hour...

Then there's also the mob TP thing as well...

[NeoSuplex]

Never Melee in an EXP Party. You will never hit the MOB and Every time you swing, the MOB will use it's strongest TP attack. Plus, it will cause all your Enfeebles to miss and it increases the Recast on Refreh and Haste. On top of that, Each hit Drains MP from you and lowers the efficiency of convert. It is simply impossible to Auto-Attack and do other RDM like things at the same time, so don't even try.

[Marco]

Much better.

[Courtney]

NeoSuplex :
Never Melee in an EXP Party. You will never hit the MOB and Every time you swing, the MOB will use it's strongest TP attack. Plus, it will cause all your Enfeebles to miss and it increases the Recast on Refreh and Haste. On top of that, Each hit Drains MP from you and lowers the efficiency of convert. It is simply impossible to Auto-Attack and do other RDM like things at the same time, so don't even try.

Bet you think that tanks should forget about things like VIT and Defence too. EVERYONE knows that stats make no difference in how well someone can do their job.... Load up the PLDs with Astral Rings etc so they can cure more, lol.

[Stanislaw]

If you read carefully, you can tell he was being sarcastic...

[Courtney]

Didn't I respond to his sarcasm? maybe I was too subtle...

[Ohemgee]

Have you ever thought not meleeing makes XP faster?

I mean, a simple 120 MP would probaly do half the damage you can dish out while meleeing.

[XaviarCraig]

Let me clear things up...
(Note for the slow: This is all based off my personal experiances.)
Q: Melee plz?
A: In normal run-to-the-mill exp parties: If you melee, you are begging to have your ass flamed! People dont care if you can multitask, all they want is steady safe exp. If you melee, your party will think that sooner or later; you will screw up and everything will go to hell. Most view RDM melee as a gamble with too few benefits to be worth while. Because of this, You will be told to refrain from meleeing. This useally ends as you sitting back, being their bitch, and having most of your skills decay away.

Q:But I wantz to melee!!! I got this uber cool sword!
A:
First off: for the sword, might as well sell it. Most parties get angry if their RDM is holding a blade of any kind. They want a wand or staff in your hands(for magical benefits).
Second: Well in a normal experiance points part(I like to call them Normy{or Normies}) Tough shit! They aint gonna letcha melee and if you will try: You will just piss off everyone and possibly get booted! Trust me, I KNOW from experiance. Yep, you guessed it, I am one of those RDM who can melee and keep up with refreshing, hasting, enfeebling, and magic burst skillchains.
But guess what? People didnt care at the time and I doubt they will now. They just got pissed because I was up there with the REAL melee classes.

Q:Why??
A:Well lets look at the list of pros and cons of redmage meleeing:

Pro(s)
--------
Extra overall damage output(minimal)
Extra possible skill chains(unlikely)
RDM can actually see what the mob is doing, this can lead to faster dispel(ing), emergency healing, and magic bursting.

Con(s)
---------
RDM is vulnerable to Area-Of-Effect attacks which may include any of the following: Stat reduction, massive damage, negative status effects(which include silence, slow, paralyze)
>If the above is true then any of the following can/will be true:
>> RDM Status effects will hinder the party's EXP efforts
>> RDM will require healing which reduces MP that could have been used for the tank
>> RDM will die requiring Raise which wastes lots of MP and time.
Another party member is susceptible to links.
RDM will have less MP overall due to lack of resting during combat
RDM may cause party to get wiped because he/she/it wasnt resting and a chain of AOEs caused several deaths that could have been avoided if SOMEONE WAS RESTING FOR MP TO HEAL WITH *COUGH rdm COUGH*

{Hmmm.} {Thanks for the offer, but I will have to pass!}
I hate to say it but the Con(s) heavily out weigh the Pro(s). Only parties that pity the RDM tend to let him/her melee at higher levels.

Q:So thats it? Theres no hope for me to melee in EXP parties?!
A:Luckly for me(and possibly you), NO! Allow me to explain: Outside of Normies there are 4 other viable ways of obtaining EXP where you can not only melee, but thrown on STR/DEX/ATT/ACC gear and get away with it! They are as follows with a brief discription:

The not-so-normal EXP party: Occasionaly when someone is trying to form a EXP party, they will make a particularly screwy setup that allows various jobs to play non-standard roles. For example: If they accedently forgot to get a tank and got 2 RDM *GASP* Heaven forbid! Well providing the RDM has good defense, is subbing NIN or WAR, Has defense food he/she/it CAN tank! While tanking, you can get away with meleeing! You can do it till your hearts content! Note: If you sub nin YOU NEED someone to pin hate on your with SATA or you simply are not tanking! However, the chances of this happening are very low, so dont count on it! Also this works and doesnt work, It varies according to: The RDM's equipment, skill, real life intelligents!(surprize surprize) and the monster(what type and level)

Small EXP parties: Every now and then when just a few people are lookin for a party, there are like 7 full parties at their range, and none of the parties is/gonna need a member. So you got 3-4 people who want a EXP party bad, what do you do? You plan on what you could or couldnt do with them. IF you see a viable solution of a successfull EXP party, you ask the people and try to form it. Some people may need unconventional subjobs: Example: DRG/WHM, DRK/WHM, PLD/WAR RDM/whatever, This can work if:
1.You find the right place with the right mobs
2.Everyone knows what to do and how to do it
3.Everyone has the right equipment for this
In this juncture, having a melee RDM is more than welcome. However very few people like to try this, because it fails most of the time when people run in without the correct subjob/equipment and fight the wrong mobs.

Beastmaster parties: Ahh yes! The forbidden fruit of FFXI! Partying with Beastmaster while not being one! For those who wish to be renegade Redmages, and want to run with a pack! If one searches deep down, they can realize the power of this. Redmages are best at enfeebling, If you ever played as a beastmaster you know how sweet enfeebles are when they are working for you. Not to mention, a Redmage is not a heavy hitter so they can melee with the beastmasters pet without ripping hate. If done correctly this is a very fun combo. The Beastmaster(s) can sub ninja without loosing healing power. If their pet(s) uncharm, you simply bind/gravity the mob you are fighting till they get everything undercontrol. This not only allows for use of the more exotic subjobs, meleeing here goes hand in hand! It can tricky to setup correctly as the RDM needs alot of non-standard equipment. However finding a BST at your level can be hard, let alone one willing to try this.

SOLO: The ulimate challenge... A redmage has everything you could possibly want for soloing, several enfeebling, buffing, nuking, healing spells, with somewhat decent weapons and armour to boot. With a beefy subjob, one can solo Evenmatches at any level! However with lack of any way to deal REAL damage is where this idea falls short. You could pile on the buffs and debuffs but it still doesnt cover the fact you have nothing dealing any serious damage. And the longer the battle drags out, the more risky it becomes. Theres a higher change for the monster to unleash a devasting TP attack which could instantly turn the tables, and your MP slowly withers away from all the buffs and debuffs. While soloing normaly, you better have your blade in your hand all the time! Its not whether you want to melee or not, you HAVE TO! Regardless, only a few other jobs can hope to solo at any level past 20. If you are skilled you can probably get between 400 and 1000 EXP an hour at level 25-???(havent gotten past limit 1 yet so I am at 50 >_>;;;) The trouble is, anything past an evenmatch is very risky to do and is useally dragged out for a long time, I am talking like 10 to 30 minutes.
The only way to make this somewhat pratical at anything past the 30s is to Sub beastmaster and form tactics for that. However when subbing beastmaster, one must remember 3 VERY important things:
1. You have less CHR than a REAL beastmaster
2. Your charm is weaker and based off your REAL beastmaster level, not what it is as a subjob. So if you want to beastmaster at level 45, your beastmaster better be atleast 45.
3. You do not have jug pets and you get abilities much later.
Since I can not properly try RDM/BST,(RDM50, BST32) I do not know how well it works. But I have tryed WHM/BST and it works pretty well, tricky but fun! I have heard from a few people that RDM/BST is one of the few combos that gets easier the higher in level you get.


There you have it: generaly when and when not to melee as RDM

[NeoSuplex]

I was being sarcastic, but that's honestly not far from some of the arguments I've heard. The stigma agaist RDM Melee is such that you simply cannot be considered a good RDM if you Melee.

If I went into a Party and Refreshed and did nothing else I'd be better recieved than if I Auto-Attacked, Debuffed and Refreshed. And I say that without a drop of Sarcasm.

[Courtney]

True, but being considered a good RDM is way different from being a good RDM...

In my opinion, if all you were doing was refreshing, you might as well be melleeing.

RDM offers sooo much more to a party though.

Levelling WHM to 41 I only saw 1-2 RDM who debuffed, so I did it myself (although nowhere near as well as a RDM could...). Once I got the basic debuffs on, Blind, Slow and Paralyse, I would cut my MP usage by half. Every missed attack, every Paralyse proc, every % slowed would boost my MP and extend the chain. Often as a RDM, those intermanable enfeeble cycles every mob would seem pointless.... as a WHM, they were a Godsend.

Lots of players don't notice (or value) anything a RDM does apart from Refresh... the term Refresh-whore gets used all the time, and unfortunately a lot of RDMs even start to believe it. They don't see any "big numbers" when they enfeeble, and often don't see any difference whether they use different gear to enfeeble, or even whether they enfeeble or not. The difference is there though, and it's a big one. If you don't use all the INT/MND/Skill gear you can when enfeebling (and this is one of the big issues with melleeing RDMs as the biggest piece on INT/MND/Skill gear we have is a wand or elemental staff), then you're cheating yourself, and your party, whether your party realises it or not...

[Stanislaw]

Courtney :
Lots of players don't notice (or value) anything a RDM does apart from Refresh...

This is true, so I do something that most other RDMs do not.

I pull.

[NeoSuplex]

At that level, Support are very often pullers actually.

[AvramMorrow]

Goku :

But after all, why would RDM's AF1 weapon be a sword, have access to unlocking the Savage Blade WS, and be able to use Excalibur if they were never intended to melee?

Bards have a Dagger for AF1, but do they Melee because of it? They can learn Evisceration, but do they use it?
And the point isn't "RDM Melee in general" but "RDM Melee in EXP PT".

1) RDM can tank. RDM/WAR has more than enough staying power, with proper gear, to tank a lot like a Paladin for much of the game. However, you need another RDM or a BRD in the party to do the actual refreshing. Just like you'd not expect your PLD to main heal for everyone, you can't have your RDM/WAR main refreshing everyone if they are a tank. Also, this is where Galka RDM pwn all others.

Wow, comparing a RDM/WAR to a PLD is kind of funny. I doubt we are playing the same game, because a RDM tank will sub Ninja.

Now /smn? Rofl. Fyi, Sushi+1 just last longer and add Acc+1% (1h instead of 30min, and Acc+16% instead of +15%).

Goku,

How, exactly, is a RDM/NIN going to hold hate?

Let's see... you don't cure yourself, because you aren't taking much damage. You don't have provoke...

I think you're going to find that if you try to tank for a party (which is what I was talking about) as a RDM/NIN, that you're going to NEVER EVER be able to hold hate off even a marginal dd.

Second,

When I say "sushi", I'm not saying NQ or HQ, I'm leaving that to the preference of the user. I'm well aware of how melee foods work, and well aware of how to melee. Despite that entire post up above, I never, ever melee in parties. I don't think the tradeoff is worth it.

But, having said that, I've seen both a RDM/WAR who tanked just fine for a party (50's, in Boyadha, a Galka RDM/WAR loaded with DEF & VIT gear. Used self-buffs and self-curing. His performance was remarkably similar to a paladin), and RDM who have done at least somewhat decent damage in parties meleeing, though that seems to be more common at either much lower or much higher levels.

My point is this:

No, a RDM is not a perfect tank, but a RDM/WAR with proper defense and VIT gear is a way better option than sitting on your ass in Jeuno doing nothing and not gaining any XP. I'd rather chain VT / IT - for 4.5k an hour than get nothing.

No, a RDM is not a perfect DD. In fact, not even really a very good one. But there are some parties where you can get away with melee (like certain burn parties) and still do what they really wanted from you anyways, which is refresh and dispel, while meleeing.

A RDM is going to be a caster only for the majority of their career, however. But if you're being completely close-minded about the other possibilities, you are just as bad as the people who are insisting on melee in normal XP parties. Most jobs are more versatile than people think, and if you have good players with uber gear, you do not need the perfect party in order to get some decent XP.

Sometimes you have to run with what you've got available.

[Superbleh]

Courtney :
Lots of players don't notice (or value) anything a RDM does apart from Refresh...

And as you said, sadly, a lot of RDMs don't either. That's my single biggest complaint - a RDM meleeing is often just an indicator of bigger issues Most of them suck, sadly. Most don't cast Slow, or Paralyze, and even more rarely Blind. Most people here probably do, but from my experience ingame I don't think I've partied with a single good RDM while playing my MNK to 59. Pretty much all of them need {Dispel}{please} spammed when we start hitting 0-10 on crabs for a whole minute since no one dispelled their protect effect.

I remember a post a while back by a JP RDM... he said he would do his normal duties, but when all buffs were stuck and there was a lull in combat, or a wait for recast timers he would use his bow and shoot arrows. Out of range of AOE, able to swap mainhand weapons easily, not commiting to an attack by engaging, but able to do a little extra damage as well. Sounds interesting to me, even if you miss it wouldn't hurt anyone but your wallet.

[Odette]

My problem with rdm xp melee is that there is always something better we could be doing... Rdm melee normally skate by doing the bare minimum and never reach their full potential as a mage/caster... Personally, if I feel like meleeing I either solo or change jobs and level war, both are much more satisfying than giving up my HQ staves in xp and main-handing sword/dagger...

[Kibz]

Wow, comparing a RDM/WAR to a PLD is kind of funny. I doubt we are playing the same game, because a RDM tank will sub Ninja.

Now /smn? Rofl. Fyi, Sushi+1 just last longer and add Acc+1% (1h instead of 30min, and Acc+16% instead of +15%).

RDM/WAR in the right equip using the right food will take more hits for 0 damage with stoneskin down against em/dc/ep than a paladin against most tw's in garliage citadel.

As rdm/nin T steelshells do I think it was 20-80 damage a hit to me with only fish kabobs and -10% damage taken gear on and buffs.

Now imagine defense bonus + defender + genbus shield + a body piece besides republic aketon on.(I don't even use a shield, and won't til genbu gives me his)

We're best used as skill up party and select NM/HNM tanks if we're tanking anything at all though.


As far as /smn go's, it has it's uses. HQ sushi also does give slightly better stats than NQ so no argument that it should be used mroe if you can afford it.

How, exactly, is a RDM/NIN going to hold hate?

Let's see... you don't cure yourself, because you aren't taking much damage. You don't have provoke...

I think you're going to find that if you try to tank for a party (which is what I was talking about) as a RDM/NIN, that you're going to NEVER EVER be able to hold hate off even a marginal dd.

Provoke and cures aren't the only ways to hold hate.

SATAWS closing a renkei usually helps. Though when I tank /nin I usually prefer to close a renkei myself and burst it for hate. Especially now that I have savage blade and joy toy :love

Then again, most of the mobs I tank I can do decent damage to. Unlike some people I accept what my job is best at doing, and just avoid xp parties ;p

[Morrolan]

When I say "sushi", I'm not saying NQ or HQ, I'm leaving that to the preference of the user. I'm well aware of how melee foods work, and well aware of how to melee. Despite that entire post up above, I never, ever melee in parties. I don't think the tradeoff is worth it.

When I say "if you use sushi (I would readily substitute any melee food here) I do not want you in my party" I mean that regardless of the sushi quality. A RDM eating sushi thinks he is in a skillup party.